Professional Level Cameras

[WesScog]

For those of us that want to invest in some heavy artillery, I thought I would make a comprehensive list of all about +$2,000 setups so we can really see how they stack up.

For Sub-$1500 cameras, refer to KMProductions wonderful Camera Guide (http://forum.indymogul.com/showthread.php?t=7166)here on the forums. While this is a list that is dedicated to Prosumer and Professional equipment (generally anything more than a few thousand dollars, with a lot of manual controls) his list is dedicated to the consumer level cameras that most of us have, and might be more useful for most of you guys.

I am including the HV30 on the list so you can see how it compares to more expensive cameras.

Zacuto's Camera Tests; many of the camera's on this list featured in a head to head tests:
http://www.vimeo.com/1088550
http://www.vimeo.com/2437826

HV30 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/539289-REG/Canon_2680B001_VIXIA_HV30_HDV_Camcorder.html) - Approx. $699 (With a top of the line 35mm Adapter, it would run about $1,700, with the Adapter used in the final example it would be under $1,000):
http://www.vimeo.com/1549470 (http://www.vimeo.com/1454421)
http://www.vimeo.com/1154024 (35mm Adapter)
http://www.vimeo.com/895240
http://www.vimeo.com/930740
http://www.vimeo.com/1717239 (http://www.vimeo.com/1464926)
http://www.vimeo.com/1631878
http://www.vimeo.com/1421891
http://www.vimeo.com/1737450


D90 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/580241-REG/Nikon_25446_D90_SLR_Digital_Camera.html) - Approx. $929 (Camera body only, with lens $1200-1600):
http://www.vimeo.com/2046883
http://www.vimeo.com/2448758
http://www.vimeo.com/1808895
http://www.vimeo.com/1810729
http://www.vimeo.com/1728924
http://www.vimeo.com/1728575
http://vimeo.com/groups/d90/videos/2422919

HDR-XR520V (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/597660-REG/Sony_HDR_XR520V_HDR_XR520V_240GB_High_Definition.h tml) - Approx. $1449:
http://www.vimeo.com/4185116
http://www.vimeo.com/3934421
http://www.vimeo.com/3983561
http://www.vimeo.com/3903041 (XR520 vs. HV20)
http://www.vimeo.com/4354393 (XR520 vs. GH-1 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/608940-REG/Panasonic_DMC_GH1K_Lumix_DMC_GH1_Digital_Camera.ht ml))

HD1000U (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/518555-REG/Sony_HVRHD1000U_HVR_HD1000U_Digital_High_Definitio n.html) - Approx. $1599:
http://www.vimeo.com/464903
http://www.vimeo.com/604836
http://www.vimeo.com/702024
http://www.vimeo.com/1852613
http://www.vimeo.com/2675684

HMC70 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/547680-REG/Panasonic_AG_HMC70U_AG_HMC70U_Shoulder_Mounted_Cam corder.html) - Approx. $1699:
http://www.vimeo.com/1563432
http://www.vimeo.com/2176172
http://www.vimeo.com/2229289
http://www.vimeo.com/1564096

HSC1U (http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-AG-HSC1U-Memory-Camcorder-Optical/dp/B000NAW2PS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1241397693&sr=8-1) - Approx. $1828:
http://www.vimeo.com/995803
http://www.vimeo.com/1611720
http://www.vimeo.com/2491655
http://www.vimeo.com/968740
http://www.vimeo.com/1210984
http://www.vimeo.com/1191212

GL2 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/255811-REG/Canon_7920A001_GL2_Mini_DV_3CCD.html) - Approx. $1,949 ($1,299+ Used):
http://www.vimeo.com/2134934
http://www.vimeo.com/2013139
http://www.vimeo.com/2614413
http://www.vimeo.com/2434911
http://www.vimeo.com/2199963
http://www.vimeo.com/703423
http://www.vimeo.com/873499


DSR250 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/205297-REG/Sony_DSR250_DSR_250_Professional_1_3_DVCAM.html) - Approx. $1999:
http://www.vimeo.com/936546
http://www.vimeo.com/2190365
http://www.vimeo.com/936336
http://www.vimeo.com/936629
http://www.vimeo.com/933036

HDR-FX7 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/459129-REG/Sony_HDRFX7_HDR_FX7_3CMOS_HDV_1080i.html) - Approx. $2000:
http://www.vimeo.com/966775
http://www.vimeo.com/2308805
http://www.vimeo.com/2343078
http://www.vimeo.com/749661
http://www.vimeo.com/1226226
http://www.vimeo.com/1326690
http://www.vimeo.com/1502734

HVR-A1U (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/384527-REG/Sony_HVRA1U_HVRA1U_HDV_Camcorder.html) - Approx. $2140:
http://www.vimeo.com/1692929 (A1U vs. HV30)
http://www.vimeo.com/1701106 (A1U vs. HC9 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/580528-REG/Sony_HDRHC9VBDL_HDR_HC9_HDV_Camcorder_.html))
http://www.vimeo.com/1021152
http://www.vimeo.com/888362
http://www.vimeo.com/2357710
http://www.vimeo.com/2110844

DVX100 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/406876-REG/Panasonic_DVX100BSC_AG_DVX100BQ_3_CCD_24p_Mini_DV. html) - Approx. $2400:
http://www.vimeo.com/1461330
http://www.vimeo.com/2459601
http://www.vimeo.com/2455125
http://www.vimeo.com/2259595
http://www.vimeo.com/1565641
http://www.vimeo.com/779921

Clips from TV Shows/Films shot with DVX:
The Tracey Fragments (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0jEN2_REy4) 2nd Trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-TbdIKhvn4)
November (http://www.sonypictures.com/classics/syndication/trailers/november/november_high.asx)
Murderball (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kaT5dDiISw)

PD170 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/296545-REG/Sony_DSRPD170_DSR_PD170_3_CCD_Mini_DVCAM.html) - Approx. $2500:
http://www.vimeo.com/955517 - PD170 and HVX200
http://www.vimeo.com/1203290 - XHA1 vs. HVX vs. PD170
http://www.vimeo.com/2686291
http://www.vimeo.com/2633206
http://www.vimeo.com/2568268
http://www.vimeo.com/2190365

Clips from TV Shows/Films shot with PD150 (Which is the predecessor to this camera):
David Lynch's Inland Empire (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0ynOGSYQY4)

5D Mark II (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/583953-REG/Canon_2764B003_EOS_5D_Mark_II.html) - Approx. $2699 (Camera body only, with lens $3000-3500):
http://www.vimeo.com/2327058
http://www.vimeo.com/2435467
http://www.vimeo.com/2314305
http://www.vimeo.com/2125645
http://www.vimeo.com/2053280
http://www.vimeo.com/2703699

Clips from TV Shows/Films shot with 5DMII:
Reverie (http://www.vincentlaforet.com/)

HD110 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/444424-REG/JVC_GYHD110U_GYHD110U_Professional_HDV_Camcorder.h tml) - Approx. $2995:
http://www.vimeo.com/786692
http://www.vimeo.com/797405
http://www.vimeo.com/2267549
http://www.vimeo.com/786692
http://www.vimeo.com/1461565
http://www.vimeo.com/1427527
http://www.vimeo.com/725722


XHA1 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/447098-REG/Canon_1191B001_XH_A1_3CCD_HDV_Camcorder.html) Approx - $2999:
http://www.vimeo.com/2549796
http://www.vimeo.com/2603792
http://www.vimeo.com/2459626
http://www.vimeo.com/1122630
http://www.vimeo.com/982093
http://www.vimeo.com/846830
http://www.vimeo.com/1691883
HV30 vs. XHA1 (http://www.vimeo.com/902099)

XL2 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/339002-REG/Canon_9549A001_XL_2_1_3_Inch_3_CCD_Widescreen.html ) - Approx. $3259:
http://www.vimeo.com/1649250
http://www.vimeo.com/42284
http://www.vimeo.com/406253
http://www.vimeo.com/1007983
http://www.vimeo.com/739588
http://www.vimeo.com/2678127
http://www.vimeo.com/2480885

V1U (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/461818-REG/Sony_HVRV1U_HVR_V1U_HDV_Camcorder.html) - Approx. $3349:
http://www.vimeo.com/1272365
http://www.vimeo.com/936720
http://www.vimeo.com/1514407
http://www.vimeo.com/760984
http://www.vimeo.com/1461626
http://www.vimeo.com/649127
XHA1 vs. V1U vs. FX1 (http://www.vimeo.com/1203339)

HMC150 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/575992-REG/Panasonic_AG_HMC150_AG_HMC150_AVCCAM_Camcorder.htm l) - Approx. $3495:
http://www.vimeo.com/2067495
http://www.vimeo.com/2735413
http://www.vimeo.com/2652090
http://www.vimeo.com/1576961
http://www.vimeo.com/2059269
http://www.vimeo.com/1838192
http://www.vimeo.com/1934054


Z5 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/582905-REG/Sony_HVR_Z5U_HVR_Z5U_HDV_1080p_24p_CAMCORDER.html) - Approx. $4299:
http://www.vimeo.com/2519084
http://www.vimeo.com/2670618
http://www.vimeo.com/1965225

Z7 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/532558-REG/Sony_HVR_Z7U_HVR_Z7U_HDV_Camcorder.html) - Approx. $4879:
http://www.vimeo.com/1175341
http://www.vimeo.com/1347661
http://www.vimeo.com/745532
http://www.vimeo.com/913313
http://www.vimeo.com/1028358
http://www.vimeo.com/1664658

[WesScog]

HPX170 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/559333-REG/Panasonic_AG_HPX170_AG_HPX170_P2HD_Solid_State_Cam corder.html) - Approx. $5195:
http://www.vimeo.com/1931586
http://www.vimeo.com/1959100
http://www.vimeo.com/2092774
http://www.vimeo.com/1872493
http://www.vimeo.com/1864756
http://www.vimeo.com/1872013

HVX200 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/558723-REG/Panasonic_AGHVX200A_AG_HVX200A_P2HD_Camcorder.html ) - Approx. $5199:
http://www.vimeo.com/1093520
http://www.vimeo.com/1522005
http://www.vimeo.com/355881
http://www.vimeo.com/1493848
http://www.vimeo.com/2171848
http://www.vimeo.com/1133433

Clips from TV Shows/ Films shot on HVX:
Charlie On Parole (http://www.vimeo.com/1440895)
http://www.nglmovie.com/

HD200 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/472191-REG/JVC_GY_HD200UB_GY_HD200U_Professional_HDV_Camcorde r.html) - Approx. $5795:
http://www.vimeo.com/1340745
http://www.vimeo.com/1439378
http://www.vimeo.com/1597864
http://www.vimeo.com/382371
http://www.vimeo.com/1725808
http://www.vimeo.com/629836


XL-H1 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/556048-REG/Canon_3249B001AA_XL_H1a_3_CCD_High_Definition.html ) - Approx. $5999:
http://www.vimeo.com/2063462
http://www.vimeo.com/2036976
http://www.vimeo.com/1977784
http://www.vimeo.com/1516555
http://www.vimeo.com/2664986
http://www.vimeo.com/2232800

EX1 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/520761-REG/Sony_PMWEX1UC_PMW_EX1_XDCAM_EX_SxS.html) - Approx. $6099:
http://www.vimeo.com/1296986
http://www.vimeo.com/1053383
http://www.vimeo.com/762333
http://www.vimeo.com/1308996
http://www.vimeo.com/1269325
http://www.vimeo.com/480384

XH-G1 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/589909-REG/Canon_3235B001_XH_G1s_3CCD_HDV_Camcorder.html)- Approx. $6999:
http://www.vimeo.com/1462690
http://www.vimeo.com/2624475
http://www.vimeo.com/2093299
http://www.vimeo.com/1088487
http://www.vimeo.com/824453
http://www.vimeo.com/1245021
http://www.vimeo.com/1629871

S27 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/532570-REG/Sony_HVR_S270U_HVR_S270U_1080i_HDV_Camcorder.html) - Approx. $7950:
http://www.vimeo.com/1023989
http://www.vimeo.com/2437957
http://www.vimeo.com/1726729
http://www.vimeo.com/1262088
http://www.vimeo.com/2284407

EX3 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/563219-REG/Sony_PMW_EX3_PMW_EX3_XDCAM_EX_HD.html) - Approx. $8320:
http://www.vimeo.com/1631488
http://www.vimeo.com/1576031
http://www.vimeo.com/879872
http://www.vimeo.com/2582597
http://www.vimeo.com/1726869

DSR-400 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/367994-REG/Sony_DSR400K_DSR_400L_2_3_Inch_3_CCD_Professional. html) - Approx. $8999:
http://www.vimeo.com/1014486
http://www.vimeo.com/1239289
http://www.vimeo.com/1455633
http://www.vimeo.com/1393645
http://www.vimeo.com/1813434
http://www.vimeo.com/1686893

XL-H1s (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/591097-REG/Canon__XL_H1s_3_CCD_High_Definition.html) - Approx. $9299:
http://www.vimeo.com/1636321

HD250 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/498192-REG/JVC_GYHD250CHU_GY_HD250U_Professional_HDV_Camcorde r.html) - Approx. $9995:
http://www.vimeo.com/1976308
http://www.vimeo.com/2614334
http://www.vimeo.com/1347762
http://www.vimeo.com/1581530

HPX500 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/489912-REG/Panasonic_AG_HPX500_AG_HPX500_2_3_Shoulder_Mounted .html) - Approx. $11500:
http://www.vimeo.com/2440610
http://www.vimeo.com/1066568
http://www.vimeo.com/2015498
http://www.vimeo.com/1697526
http://www.vimeo.com/2616085
http://www.vimeo.com/952041
http://www.vimeo.com/1400957

DSR450 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/386965-REG/Sony_DSR450WSL_DSR_450WSL_2_3_3_CCD_Professional.h tml) - Approx. $14175:
http://www.vimeo.com/2428330
http://www.vimeo.com/1574061
http://www.vimeo.com/1128191
http://www.vimeo.com/1202770

F335 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/524521-REG/Sony_PDW_F335L_PDW_F335_XDCAM_HD_1_2_.html#feature s) - Approx. $14450:
No examples yet.

PDW510 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/360504-REG/Sony_PDW510_PDW_510_XDCAM_Camcorder.html)- Approx. $18899:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T82F9e6VEHs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_JO1Wo1H9M

Red One (http://www.red.com/store/101001) - Approx. $20000 (Camera Body Only $17500):
http://vimeo.com/1150393
http://vimeo.com/2235163
http://vimeo.com/1942639
http://vimeo.com/2023700

Clips/Trailers from Films Shot with Red:
http://vimeo.com/2702979
http://vimeo.com/2574815

HDX500 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/558815-REG/Panasonic_AJ_HDX900_AJ_HDX900_Professional_High_De finition.html) - Approx. $22500:
http://www.vimeo.com/1291243
http://www.vimeo.com/2033190
http://www.vimeo.com/2141298
http://www.vimeo.com/2346325
http://www.vimeo.com/2528104

PDW700 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/554275-REG/Sony_PDW_700_PDW_700_XDCAM_HD422_CAMCORDER.html) - Approx. $29800:
http://vimeo.com/1228051
http://vimeo.com/2604607
http://vimeo.com/2063944
http://vimeo.com/1810196

SI-2K (http://www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/index.html) - Approx. $31800 (I am contacting SI to check on the price and dealer information):
http://www.vimeo.com/2246682
http://www.vimeo.com/1655200
http://www.vimeo.com/1406993
http://www.vimeo.com/1998729
http://www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/gallery_footage.html

Clips/Trailers from TV Shows/Films shot with SI-2K:
http://www.vimeo.com/2476757

HDC27 (http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?displayTab=O&storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=94208&catGroupId=15768&surfModel=AJ-HDC27H) - Approx. $45000:
http://www.vimeo.com/1085889
http://www.vimeo.com/1089391
http://www.vimeo.com/1091339

Clips/Trailers from TV Shows/Films shot with Varicam:
http://www.vimeo.com/2106208

DVW-970 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/410747-REG/Sony_DVW970_DVW_970_2_3_Inch_3_CCD_Digital.html) - Approx. $47215:
http://www.vimeo.com/2266737

HPX3700 (http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?displayTab=O&storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=299732&catGroupId=112002&surfModel=AJ-HPX3700) - Approx. $59950:
http://www.vimeo.com/1479894
http://www.vimeo.com/1581799
http://www.vimeo.com/1238821

HDW-F900 (http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-broadcastcameras/cat-cinealta/product-HDWF900R/) - Approx. $69900 (Approx. $1000 Daily Rental):
http://www.vimeo.com/953195
http://www.vimeo.com/1604887
http://www.vimeo.com/423889
http://www.vimeo.com/439824

Clips/Trailers from TV Shows/Films shot with F900:
Dexter (http://www.vimeo.com/1783039)

F23 (http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-broadcastcameras/cat-cinealta/product-F23/) - Approx. $150,000 (Approx. $2000 Daily Rental):
http://www.vimeo.com/1063582
http://www.vimeo.com/2677844
http://www.vimeo.com/2559208

Clips/Trailers for TV Shows/Films shot with F23:
Speed Racer (http://www.vimeo.com/929122)

Thomson Viper (http://www.thomsongrassvalley.com/products/cameras/viper/) - Approx. 200,000 (Approx. $2000 Daily Rental):
No Examples yet.

Clips/Trailers from TV Shows/Films shot with Viper:
Collateral (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IeMNvQY5mY)
Miami Vice (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4xSA7_aEtI)
Zodiac (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dWgRfb17-M)
I Love Sarah Jane (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYpeb-JuOZ0)

F35 (http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/product-F35/) - Approx. +$250,000-350,000 (Approx. $3000 per day rental):
No Examples yet.

Panavision Genesis (http://www.panavision.com/contact_us.php?continent=1) - Approx. +$300,000-500,000, although unavailable for consumer purchase, RENTAL ONLY. (Between +$2,500-4000 per day rental depending on package):
Panavision vs. 35mm (http://media.panavision.com/ScreeningRoom/Screening_Room/IGFC_Results/IGFC_Results.html)
http://www.vimeo.com/1543561
http://www.vimeo.com/1541974
http://www.vimeo.com/1510751 - (Shot on Genesis AND Red)

Clips/Trailers from TV Shows/Films shot with Genesis:
Superbad (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNpoTxeydiY)
Apocalypto (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcXNzdN3kSc)
Planet Terror (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQpXdSC4UFk)

[Hunterr]

Wow. Those are all really great examples that I am sure will help people here in the forum purchase some higher end camera's.

You've done it again Wes. :D

-Hunter

[Citrus]

That HV30 vs XHA1 video was VERY helpful. Those were the two cameras I'm choosing between and there isn't a REALLY big difference between the two. The sharpness is little clearer on the XHA1 but the HV30 still looks great. Well only $300 dollars to go!

[KMProductions]

Wow, awesome Wes!

[Proproductions]

Lol I want those.
But they cost so much:(

[Hunterr]

That HV30 vs XHA1 video was VERY helpful. Those were the two cameras I'm choosing between and there isn't a REALLY big difference between the two. The sharpness is little clearer on the XHA1 but the HV30 still looks great. Well only $300 dollars to go!

So which one are you getting? :D

-Hunter

[Citrus]

So which one are you getting? :D

-Hunter
HV30 lol I think it would be most fitting for the place in my "career" right now.

[Nonsensical studios]

Its a Great Cam, plus is frees up some money for other things.

[Citrus]

Its a Great Cam, plus is frees up some money for other things.
Indeed it does. I don't know what I'll buy after that though, I might take a break from saving and spend some money on everyday things like gas and movies lol.

[speekerphone]

I love you.

[Apocalypse WOW!]

are all these digital?

[WesScog]

Yes. I'm eventually going to add a few 16mm and 35mm cam's on here, along with cost-per-minute shooting.

But these are currently all digital.

[WesScog]

Added, the D90 and the 5D onto the list so you can see how a dedicated DSLR stacks up against dedicated video rigs.

[WesScog]

http://nrkbeta.no/red-vs-canon-5d-mkii-del-1/
http://nrkbeta.no/red-vs-canon-5d-mark-ii-del-2/

Speaking of adding the 5D to the list, here is a new test with the Red One vs. the 5D.

It's in Norwegian (hopefully a Northern European Moguler will tell us some of what they are saying....) but you don't really need to know Norwegian to see the difference in the test results, although thankfully a lot of what they say in the final results (On the Del-2 link) is in English, so that is helpful.

[hardcore productions]

im at a crossroads!im have been looking for a new camear because i have been getting really busy with some shots.commercials,weddings,music videos and things like that.i have been looking to get the xl2 but have also been looking at the jvc gy-hd100. i know that they are both great camera.i have been useing gl1 and gl2.im surethat the jvc is an awsome camera but do i need that much camera at the stages that im at now.please need some advice

[thepie]

Digital

Arri D21 (http://www.arri.com/prod/cam/d_21/d_21.htm)-$1500 a day - $400,000
Example 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZF2ApxX2eE)

65MM

Arriflex 765 (http://www.arri.com/entry/products.htm) - No clue
no examples


35MM

Arriflex 235 (http://www.arri.com/prod/cam/235/235.htm) - $800 a day
Example 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjsoIqfLvxQ)

Arriflex 535B (http://www.arri.com/prod/cam/535b/535b.html) - $1150 a day
no Examples

Arriflex 435 Extreme (http://www.arri.com/prod/cam/435xtreme/435_extr.htm) - $1300 a day
The first shot is the 435 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZP3_6nCM0Q)

Panavision XL2 (http://www.panavision.com/product_detail.php?maincat=1&cat=78&id=377&node=c0,c3,c4,c5)
no examples

Panavision PFX-M (http://www.panavision.com/product_detail.php?maincat=1&cat=78&id=60&node=c0,c3,c4,c5)
no examples

Panavision PFX-P (http://www.panavision.com/product_detail.php?maincat=1&cat=78&id=63&node=c0,c3,c4,c5)
no examples

Panavision PFXLW-II (http://www.panavision.com/product_detail.php?maincat=1&cat=78&id=59&node=c0,c3,c4,c5)
no examples

Panavision PSTR-P High Speed Camera (http://www.panavision.com/product_detail.php?maincat=1&cat=78&id=62&node=c0,c3,c4,c5)
no examples


16MM

Panavision Panaflex 16mm (http://www.panavision.com/product_detail.php?maincat=1&cat=72&id=28&node=c0,c100,c101,c102) - $900 a day
no examples

Arriflex 416 (http://www.arri.com/prod/cam/416/416.html) - $800 a day
Example 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsikzMIWwcA&feature=related)
Example 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPcXrFI2sVg&feature=related)

Arriflex 16SR 3 Advanced (http://www.arri.com/prod/cam/16sr3ad/16sr3ad.html) - $350 a day
Example 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1loAR8MXK4)

[iggzy]

Any opinions on the Sony HDR-HC1 (http://www.amazon.com/Sony-HDR-HC1-Definition-Camcorder-Optical/dp/B0009Q4W9A/ref=tag_stp_st_edpp_url)? I'm considering getting it, despite being a bit out of my range, but I know its a quality camera but older model now cheap(old reviews say was $2000) I need some opinions from more short filmmakers like myself, but $700 for what it is sounds great

[stikyfingas]

HC1 is old but a lot of guys who bought it love it. I have heard that it's really good with low light too.

[WesScog]

It looks decent enough from here, let me dig up some sample footage.

http://www.vimeo.com/941580
http://www.vimeo.com/933194
http://www.vimeo.com/2324368 - W/ 35mm adapter
http://www.vimeo.com/921204
http://www.vimeo.com/1233822
http://www.vimeo.com/1209635
http://www.vimeo.com/1100700
http://www.vimeo.com/2573199 - Short Film shot with it
http://www.vimeo.com/1153685 - Another Short Film

[iggzy]

Thanks for the info/advice guys. Probably gonna pick it up for a summer short I have planned

[WesScog]

Well like what all are you looking for in the camera? And how much money do you have to spend?

I mean you can pick up a NEW HV30 for less than a used HC1 it seems.

[iggzy]

I note that, but I want something that can hold up for a while, and I kind of like the size difference the HC1 offers me. Mainly what I need is good in low light, HDV, I like the Mini-DV format as well as my current camera is an old Cannon ZR series which sadly doesn't even have a microphone port. My current 2 movie ideas, and the one I will probably make this summer, are generally going to have a fair amount of low light scenes, and I actually plan to be in Black and White so the low light is needed for a clean conversion to b&w.

I know its overkill, but in my looking its the first one to jump out at me. I mean, good weight, right format, all the ports I need(including firewire) as well as HD upgrade, its got a good optical viewfinder, actually one of the best on cameras I've seen and I like the option of of optical a lot, and I still trust Sony and its a higher end camera that is now within my potential range.

[Davo Tron]

I'm current starting pre-production on a horror piece which we were planning to shoot on a Panasonic HD camera, I think it was the HPX. However, I've just discovered the price of storage mediums for it. It shoots direct to a P2 card - a fairly average size, 16Gb, comes to about a whopping £500 - About $800

Let's just say I'm crying. DVX it is, possibly.

EDIT - Thank christ, it's not P2 at all.

[Westcroft]

I'm current starting pre-production on a horror piece which we were planning to shoot on a Panasonic HD camera, I think it was the HPX. However, I've just discovered the price of storage mediums for it. It shoots direct to a P2 card - a fairly average size, 16Gb, comes to about a whopping £500 - About $800

Let's just say I'm crying. DVX it is, possibly.

EDIT - Thank christ, it's not P2 at all.

You could rock out with the Panasonic HMC150, it shoots to SD cards which go for about... $30 for 16gb.

[Davo Tron]

Yeah, it's a HMC151 that I'm hiring. Should be a good film when i get uni work out the way.

[Dvx2100]

16mm Film Cameras

Bolex H16 Reflex- 500-1000+

Arriflex SB- 1000

Arriflex BL16- 1500

Krasnogorsk 3- 300+

It's hard to find exact prices on these cameras considering they are no longer in production. But these are prices I think your going to find in most situations. And also depending on what comes with the camera. Keep in mind the other expenses. You will most likely still need to buy tripods, lenses, film, lightmeters, magazines ( optional ) and all the other basic equipment along with costs for developing the film.

I'm still trying to find average prices for film and maybe some more cameras, feel free to help add.

[WesScog]

Well looking at Kodak's prices...

For their top of the line, color negative film, it is $146 for a 400ft. roll. (About 11 minutes.) With my student discount, it's $102, so I save $44 per 400ft.

So lets say we were shooting a feature length film, at 60 minutes, and we kept a 4:1 shooting ratio (basically extraordinarily efficient) that would come out to about...

$3180 for 240 minutes of film without discount, or $2220 with discount. So you save almost a thousand dollars.

Black and White is about half the cost of Color, exactly. So that is pretty easy to factor.

Fuji general maintains a pretty competitive pricing in comparison to Kodak, and is usually a little bit cheaper, I remember saving about 20 dollars difference in the 400ft core I bought from Fuji.

[Westcroft]

So lets say we were shooting a feature length film, at 60 minutes, and we kept a 4:1 shooting ratio (basically extraordinarily efficient)

The usual ratio is 6:1 on the big Hollywood sets... I think for those starting out and contemplating film, that they should plan to shoot more than that... 7:1 or 8:1, just to be safe.

Of course proper planning and pre-prod. will help reduce that ratio.

[Davo Tron]

Unless you are Kubrick of course. Take 254!


EDIT - I've been testing out the Panasonic HMC151 (or 150 if you aren't in Europe), I can highly recommend it.

Test Footage (http://www.vimeo.com/4188558) (when it processes...)

[DOA Productions]

Anyone seen this guy yet?
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/597283-REG/Panasonic_HDC_HS300K_HDC_HS300_120GB_HDD_SD_Card.h tml
Im not usually a fan of HDD, but this bad boy looks decent.

[WesScog]

HDC-HS300 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/597283-REG/Panasonic_HDC_HS300K_HDC_HS300_120GB_HDD_SD_Card.h tml) - $1,399
http://www.vimeo.com/3613497
http://www.vimeo.com/4013960
http://www.vimeo.com/4102274

HDC-HS100 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/575450-REG/Panasonic_HDC_HS100K_HDC_HS100_60GB_HDD_SD_Hybrid. html) - $599
http://www.vimeo.com/1865441
http://www.vimeo.com/3158799
http://www.vimeo.com/3281818
http://www.vimeo.com/3346969
http://www.vimeo.com/4100520

[gonzo_entertainment]

If you get the HVX200 spend the bit extra and get the "A" model. It took the low light capabilities of that camera from marginal to pretty darn good. I'm currently directing/producing a short (25 minutes) with about a 6K budget on one with the redrock. It looks INCREDIBLE. The average viewer will think it's film.

[Davo Tron]

Shame the P2 cards are stupidly priced.

[Westcroft]

Panasonic released information on two interesting upcoming cameras:

A compact version of the HMC150, the HMC40... It's 3mos instead of 3 CCDs and from the specs seem to have as good low light performance.
http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/20/panasonics-ag-hmc40-does-1080p24-on-a-budget/


Also this one is just hillarious... it's a P2/AVCHD (or AVC-Ultra as it's labelled) 3D camera!
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Panasonic-Exhibits-Concept-Model-of-Twin-Lens-3D-Camcorder-AVC-ULTRA-3D-36439.htm

I think the 3D cam is a bit ridiculous, but the HMC40 seems to be a great little camera that allows those who don't want to spend as much to buy the HMC150. Although the price for the HMC40 (coming out around August) is around the same price as what the HMC150 is now, the price should come down soon.

[gonzo_entertainment]

Shame the P2 cards are stupidly priced.

And you need a minimum of two. I posted a Craigslist ad and had about ten responses from guys willing to rent me one for $20 a day (16 Gig). A rental house will charge about $50 a day. That being said, Tapes are what $8 each? In a year of fairly heavy use the card wil have paid for itself. Plus no Striping the tape, dumps to your editing PC in about 15 minutes, very convenient. They are the direction cameras are going. Tapes will be a thing od the past in a couple years.

[Davo Tron]

But the HMC151 uses SDHC cards of equal or better capacity for about a tiny bit of the price of the P2 cards, making it the far more attractive option.

But I don't own a camera and hire them "in kind" so this is none of my concern at the moment

[gonzo_entertainment]

But the HMC151 uses SDHC cards of equal or better capacity for about a tiny bit of the price of the P2 cards, making it the far more attractive option.

But I don't own a camera and hire them "in kind" so this is none of my concern at the moment

Maybe so, not P2 necessarily, but digital storage as opposed to tape is here to stay. The way it stores clips is very nice as well.

[Westcroft]

You also gotta love being able to delete bad takes in the camera, saving transfer time and allowing more use on the SD cards. If you find a good deal online, pick up as many as you can... SD can be a more reliable archive than tape, the only downside is the price.

Case in point: I've left an SD card in my wallet and sent it through the wash... my visa was wrecked, anything paper was ruined... but a $5 bill and my SD card survived. I got the audio clips off (I had a freshly recorded podcast on it), formatted it and it was ready to go.

[gonzo_entertainment]

You also gotta love being able to delete bad takes in the camera, saving transfer time and allowing more use on the SD cards. If you find a good deal online, pick up as many as you can... SD can be a more reliable archive than tape, the only downside is the price.

Case in point: I've left an SD card in my wallet and sent it through the wash... my visa was wrecked, anything paper was ruined... but a $5 bill and my SD card survived. I got the audio clips off (I had a freshly recorded podcast on it), formatted it and it was ready to go.

Yep, they are durable. People have questions about sound sync. Admittedly I was working with guys who knew what they were doing, but my editor could dump the P2, my sound guy could dump sound, and 30 minutes later the editor would have a rough cut WITH synced sound, and we weren't even using timecode.

[LukBuk]

Ask Erik Beck what he uses

[WesScog]

They use an HVX200.

[MetalAlien]

For those on the fence about the EX1/3 they can now use regular class II SDHC sandisc memory cards instead of the crazy expensive Sony Express cards. I've been using them in my EX3 from almost day one with no troubles. You use an express card to SDHC adaptor. Only certain adapters work but I can get a link to one that will.

Here ya go.

http://www.e-films.com.au/shoppingcart/

This could save you 100s if not 1000s on your EX1/3 purchase.

[DigitalVideo]

HV30 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/539289-REG/Canon_2680B001_VIXIA_HV30_HDV_Camcorder.html) - Approx. $699 (With a top of the line 35mm Adapter, it would run about $1,700, with the Adapter used in the final example it would be under $1,000):
Which adapter was used in the final example? The answer may be somewhere that I missed, sorry if it is. I'm so glad I came back and saw this thread though, I have been saving up for an HV30 and now I know it's a good camera.

EDIT:
Was it a GT35Pro DOF? As far as I can tell from research those are the cheapest.

[WesScog]

No, it was a "Worley". A user named "Worley" on the HV20User Forums used to hand make them for people, and he apparently sold them for WAY WAY cheaper than anyone else, but he has since (I believe, could be wrong, he is still a moderator over there last time I checked) discontinued said service.

They can still be found around, people sell them (especially over on the HV20User forums) occasionally, and you can pick them up for a bargain.

The cheapest ones I can currently find (from cheapest to most expensive), are listed below, and there are a few that are much cheaper than the GT35Pro.


35mm Adapters:
- ProDOF (http://www.vimeo.com/user320690) - Approx. Contact Builder for Cost (http://forum.indymogul.com/skysuta@gmail.com)
-Ikord Adapter (http://ikord35.blogspot.com/) - Approx. $179
-TwoNeil Adapter (http://www.twoneil.com/products.html) - Approx. $199-347
-GT35Pro (http://gt35pro.blogspot.com/) - Approx. $230-385
-Apefos (http://www.apefos.com/site2009/indexchoose.htm) - Approx. $250-610
-JAG35 (http://www.jag35.com/) - Approx. $275-399+
- indie 35's H@ (http://www.indie35.com/) - Approx. $510
- handy35 (http://www.handy35.com/) - $599-799
- RNG35 (http://rng35.com/purchase.php) - $647
- SGpro (http://www.sgpro.co.uk/) - Approx. $892 (Plus shipping from Britain)
- i-35 HD (http://www.jetsetmodels.info/products.htm) - Approx. $947
- The Letus 35 (http://www.letus35.com/cart/home.php?xid=4b21561f76e6801d7a37362ae1f5fb0f) - Approx. $1,200 - 4,500
- Cinevate Brevis35 (http://cinevate.com/catalog/) - Approx. $1,500
- Redrock M2 (http://www.redrockmicro.com/micro35.html) - $1,795-1,995

[DigitalVideo]

Thank you very much! The Ikord looks like it would work fine. I'll be sure to write it down (I don't have a 35mm lense yet so shooting with just the camera should work for a while).

EDIT:
Screw that, I have many lenses that'll work. Sweet.

[emagrev]

I'm getting a new camera that's coming out this June, its Panasonic LUMIX DMC-GH1. Could anyone please share some opinions about this camera? I looked up at a lot of information about this GH1 and seen many video samples and heard good reviews, but I would like to hear what the people of indymogul think of this camera. What I think about this camera is that it captures beautiful video and really nice scene in low light conditions. The apreture and auto focusing is brilliant and for the price of this camera that comes with the lens(hopefully) is kinda ok for $1499.95

Thanks for any of your help and views

[stikyfingas]

I'm getting a new camera that's coming out this June, its Panasonic LUMIX DMC-GH1. Could anyone please share some opinions about this camera? I looked up at a lot of information about this GH1 and seen many video samples and heard good reviews, but I would like to hear what the people of indymogul think of this camera. What I think about this camera is that it captures beautiful video and really nice scene in low light conditions. The apreture and auto focusing is brilliant and for the price of this camera that comes with the lens(hopefully) is kinda ok for $1499.95

Thanks for any of your help and views


I looked at getting one but there is no way of using an external monitor, not much point of using the GH1s razor thin DoF if you cant get a good focus.

Holding out for the successor to the 5d or the GH1 to have all the pieces finally...

[emagrev]

I looked at getting one but there is no way of using an external monitor, not much point of using the GH1s razor thin DoF if you cant get a good focus.

Holding out for the successor to the 5d or the GH1 to have all the pieces finally...


It does have good focus. But as for an external monitor, it does lack that feature unfortunately. But I looked into its connectivity that it has an A/V out and a HDMI type C.

[NMP50]

I'm getting a new camera that's coming out this June, its Panasonic LUMIX DMC-GH1. Could anyone please share some opinions about this camera? I looked up at a lot of information about this GH1 and seen many video samples and heard good reviews, but I would like to hear what the people of indymogul think of this camera. What I think about this camera is that it captures beautiful video and really nice scene in low light conditions. The apreture and auto focusing is brilliant and for the price of this camera that comes with the lens(hopefully) is kinda ok for $1499.95

Thanks for any of your help and views

I've also been considering the GH1 too, but also I've been looking at the HV30+Handy35. Both cameras come out too about the same price. I' personally have been leaning more torwards the GH1. But does anyone have any advice on which camera would be better?

[theradoreo]

Another dedicated dlsr with HD video is the Canon Rebel T1i. I was looking into getting this camera, but it doesn't have a mic input.

Canon Rebel T1i:
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=139&modelid=18385

[Davo Tron]

Here's an interesting part of a directors blog on high end, HD cameras...

http://livingspirit.typepad.com/blog/2009/06/pga-conference-the-digital-camera-roundup-.html

Worth noting that he felt the Red One was one of the worst cameras in the test, with the Arri D21 coming out on top for him. Arri's D21 was used on Channel 4's Dead Set to great effect. Although he also says the results are good for us indie level film makers.

[WesScog]

Well since he tells us nothing about how they were captured, how they were processed or anything like that, we can't really determine anything from them.

Also, if he was projecting them all 4K, I feel that would pull the advantage decidedly towards the Red, rather than having to scale it down next to them.

Just his personal eye tells us nothing about the shots, without having exact specifics of the test, and screen shot examples of each one.

[MetalAlien]

I gotta ask, how wide spread is 4k projection?


It is the use of the appropriate tool for the job, as with any trade. Even if the final work is going to be shown on a cinema screen it is not essential that you use a big sensor and 4k resolution. When I watched the last 4k, 2k and HD demos at IBC in the big theater I really couldn't tell the difference between most of the 4K, 2K and HD at the distance I was from the screen. The biggest difference was in the production values and quality of the camerawork, not the technical specs of the cameras. __________________
Alister Chapman

Producer/Cameraman/Engineer
http://www.ingenioustv.co.uk (http://www.ingenioustv.co.uk/)

UK Storm Chaser
http://www.stormchasers.co.uk (http://www.stormchasers.co.uk/)

[WesScog]

Not particularly widespread (70 theaters so far in the United States, 38 overseas, with Regal Cinema's hoping to refit the majority of their theaters with 4K projectors within the next few years. Or over 6,500 screens), but I can promise you that the one that is actually 4K is going to look darn better projected in its native resolution, rather than downscaled to play with those other cameras.

Of course it's differences are going to be less apparent when you're dragging it down to the other cameras levels.

The fairest test would be to show them all on 2K, then show them all at 4K.

I have seen the tests of Sony's 4K projector, and there is definitely a huge amount of extra detail that you're getting, when compared to 2K projection (which is just slightly better than 1080 projectors.)

Also, the IBC demo he's talking about was over 3 years ago, with a Prototype build, and basically Sony's brand new projectors.

So the differences would be drastically different today, with better projectors, better builds, and sharper lenses.

Regardless, 4K is simply a superior projection standard (when you're talking about Projectors with similar capabilities, it of course depends on the quality of the projector, and the quality of the source material, but I am talking about projecting 2K and 4K in the same quality projectors, with 4K source material, it will look drastically better on the 4K projector).

If you want to read more about it, Sony explains technically why 4K is a superior standard (not the least of which is because it's the resolution standard in which most 35mm digital intermediaries are scanned, so it's much closer to the native resolution of the film rather than 2K).

http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/static/files/mkt/digitalcinema/Why_4K_WP_Final.pdf

[MetalAlien]

thank you I will definitely read it... are you sure about the 3 years ago thing? He posted it on January 24th, 2009, 03:53 AM seems weird to think he would be talking about 3 years ago.

The only reason I am not directly linking it is it is from another forum. I'm not sure how you guys feel about linking to another forum...

[Ladri.]

You aren't advertising. It should be fine to link it.

[MetalAlien]

You aren't advertising. It should be fine to link it.


Cool this is the link...

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/1000130-post30.html

[WesScog]

thank you I will definitely read it... are you sure about the 3 years ago thing? He posted it on seems weird to think he would be talking about 3 years ago.

The only reason I am not directly linking it is it is from another forum. I'm not sure how you guys feel about linking to another forum...

I simply assumed he was talking about the "Big Reveal" in '06, when they first showed off the Prototype footage from Red, and Sony did some examples showing differences between their 4K projectors, the 2K, and the "regular" ones.

I don't know, maybe he didn't see a difference, but I also don't know if he wears glasses, what his vision is, or how far he was actually sitting from the screen.

I have seen some tests in this regard, and maybe it's just because i've got 20/10 with my glasses, but I can see a HUGE difference.

But like I am thinking back, like at my local Blockbuster, they have the Blu-Ray demo machine playing the 'SD-HD' comparison, and from 5 feet away, it blows me away.

From 20-30 feet away on the other side of the store, I see significantly less of a difference.

But of course... I don't watch my TV from 20-30 feet away.

[bobaandy1]

Here's an interesting part of a directors blog on high end, HD cameras...

http://livingspirit.typepad.com/blog/2009/06/pga-conference-the-digital-camera-roundup-.html

Worth noting that he felt the Red One was one of the worst cameras in the test, with the Arri D21 coming out on top for him. Arri's D21 was used on Channel 4's Dead Set to great effect. Although he also says the results are good for us indie level film makers.

Big surprise here. I've yet to see an unbiased test like this, though there has certainly been a few of them.

One has to keep in mind that each of these cameras has a completely different "feel" to them. On a good day, I could pick out the RED footage vs. the Viper footage. It's nothing BAD, just that they handle imaging differently. If your expecting one thing, and get another, you might see it as a "bad picture."

The RED has gotten a bad rap with industry pros. It is totally grounded, however. It's, quite literally, taking the cumulative experience of over 100 years of filmmaking and throwing it all out the window.

For DPs who "alienate" themselves from the digital revolution, this is a totally bad thing. They spend their lives with film, and when the change comes to something they don't understand, they don't want to be left in the dust.

I will also say that the D21 FEELS more like a professional tool. This is natural, Arri has had decades to refine their cameras. RED was founded by a guy who thought it was a pretty neat hobby. Nothing against RED, of course, I love what they are doing, but it may influence the results.

[bobaandy1]

I simply assumed he was talking about the "Big Reveal" in '06, when they first showed off the Prototype footage from Red...
...From 20-30 feet away on the other side of the store, I see significantly less of a difference.

But of course... I don't watch my TV from 20-30 feet away.

Addressing this, there is a reason why all theaters don't have 4K projectors today. Yeah, it's cost, but it's also people don't care.

When you walk into an IMAX movie, theirs a difference. It's a big screen. When you see a 3D movie, theirs a difference. It's in 3D.
When you walk into a 4K theater...there is no difference. Whats the big deal again? Better quality? Whoopde-flippin-do. 95% of people will see no difference...and with the big cost of 4K projectors, it's just not a smart investment.

[WesScog]

I see a significant difference, especially when because of generational depredation many 35mm prints we see are actually UNDER HD quality.

Scanning and projecting a film how it was scanned at 4K gives you a vastly superior experience than the oftentime sub-HD experience you get from 35mm prints.

[Davo Tron]

I will also say that the D21 FEELS more like a professional tool. This is natural, Arri has had decades to refine their cameras. RED was founded by a guy who thought it was a pretty neat hobby. Nothing against RED, of course, I love what they are doing, but it may influence the results.

I think when I get round to handling cameras of this stage, I'll strive toward examining the D21 first, if only for the results on the aforementioned Dead Set.

Well since he tells us nothing about how they were captured, how they were processed or anything like that, we can't really determine anything from them.

I'd imagine they were all captured to the best of each one's ability - after all, it was professionals testing them - The person's blog I posted to was that of a director, not that of a DP, it must be worth noting, and overall he would prefer to shoot film.

[WesScog]

So a single test, whose specifics or criteria are not laid out other than, "He likes how it looks", tells you it's the better camera, even though many other tests have found just the opposite?

I just down see how it could get a superior picture, all things equal, since it's using a sensor with about half the resolution as the Red.

The D-21 uses a CMOS sensor as well, and also captures 12-bit near-RAW data from the sensor.

So really, the D-21 shouldn't have any advantages at all, the Red One does the same thing, only on a bigger sensor, with twice the resolution.

Only difference I am aware of is that the D-21 bakes in a tonal curve on the footage to try to make it look more like film, while the Red One doesn't and lets you do that in Post (and add any kind of curve you want.)

[bobaandy1]

I believe the original article was not the official word, just someones opinion on who saw the results.

[MetalAlien]

If you want to read more about it, Sony explains technically why 4K is a superior standard (not the least of which is because it's the resolution standard in which most 35mm digital intermediaries are scanned, so it's much closer to the native resolution of the film rather than 2K).

http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/static/files/mkt/digitalcinema/Why_4K_WP_Final.pdf


Read it... You know I was trying to get all excited for 4k cinema while reading that but I'm not feeling it yet. At the indoor theater I go to it's more than half digital. Way before coming to this forum I have been bragging to my buddies at work how much better I think the digital screens look than older film. I always sit within the first 3 rows too. I am one of those people that love the screen to fill my eyes. Even at the crappy drive in we park in the first row.

With that in mind, it's hard for me to get excited for 4k. I imagine it would look like the older 70mm Imax movies only on a normal screen?

If they start showing the movies they way Imax does with near vertical seating with everyone sitting really close to the screen I would be excited about it. But just sharper pictures on a normal screen? It already looks fantastic. I would have to see it to tell you if it mattered to me.

thanks for the link.

EDIT: it seems the point is moot now...LOL

http://www.screendigest.com/online_services/intelligence/cinema/updates/ci-090518-CJ1/view.html

[WesScog]

Well in the article, they explain how with 2K, most people aren't even seeing the full detail of it.

With 4K, the majority of the people in the theater won't be able to see the limitations of it.

Projecting in 4K is dramatically better, and while I would prefer stadium seating, and the screen being bigger and closer (which if you read the article I posted from Gizmodo a few days ago on the blog you'd be able to find they are doing more commonly) I would firstly prefer a better projector, because even under our current set-up, the majority of the theater is still seeing the limitations of it.

[Davo Tron]

Article updated (http://livingspirit.typepad.com/blog/2009/06/pga-conference-the-digital-camera-roundup-.html)

[WesScog]

Precisely, the D21 has a baked in look with a lot of internal sharpening, while the Red doesn't.

Also, i'd like to know what build he used for the test, since the latest update, they've found a way to reduce the Blue-channel noised that the supplemental mentions.

I'd like to see them try again with the latest build upgrade.

[Davo Tron]

I'm going on end examples - For example, Red has been used in a lot of commercials to great effect, while the Arri D21 was used on Dead Set - which was the finest shot thing on British television for 2008. However, they also had some very finest grading as well, but the image quality was still rather spot on. I can imagine the Arri is a better design for film experienced DP's.

EDIT -

Here's a camera comparison (http://thelooklondon.com/videos/e_camera_comparisons_v9_texted.mov) (graded, alas - Right click, save as) from Post Production company The Look (http://thelooklondon.com/index.html). File is HUGE, (108mb) but it's worth watching in high quality for comparison. You can get a lower-res version on The Look news page.

Double EDIT - Correction, D20 was used on Dead Set! Dooohhhhh.

[WesScog]

And the Red was used for "Knowing (http://www.apple.com/trailers/independent/knowing/)", upcoming "Gamer (http://www.apple.com/trailers/lions_gate/gamer/)", the upcoming "Book of Eli (http://backseatcuddler.com/2009/05/28/first-images-from-the-book-of-eli-with-denzel-washington/)" (that has a massive budget and could have used any camera it wanted), Soderbergh's "Che (http://www.apple.com/trailers/independent/che/)" movies, parts of Jumper (which no one i've ever talked to have been able to distinguish from the rest of the film shot in 35mm), VFX plates for Angels & Demons, The Girlfriend Experience (http://www.hulu.com/watch/68046/movie-trailers-the-girlfriend-experience) (using completely natural light), the final dozen/half-dozen or so episodes of "ER", the TV shows "Leverage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnJRhnAFZDM)", "Southland (http://ca.tv.yahoo.com/southland/show/44201)", "The Cleaner (http://www.aetv.com/the-cleaner/video/)" and "Sanctuary (http://www.sanctuaryforall.com/)".

I have read that the D-series has a VERY oversharpened "gritty" look, that is baked in, and it has to be processed through a lot of DNR to get it looking great, which softens it a lot, losing some details.

I've heard good things about the camera, don't get me wrong, I love Arri's and i've had great experiences with them in the past, I just think they need to aim higher if they want a digital cinema cam that can compete with film in every regard (which I think Arri should have a real motivation to do, since they won't be supporting themselves on only film cameras sales forever, things are changing.)

[MetalAlien]

Theatrical movie (concert film) shot mostly with EX1s. They also use some HV20s and a F355.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZDOMGAqJ4M


A couple of HV20's for low profile stuff (you can really see the difference) and a F335 for at the front of house during shows. But the EX1's really worked out well for all types of shooting.

Check out the trailer here (turn on HQ):

YouTube - Flight 666 - Official Cinema Trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZDOMGAqJ4M&feature=channel_page)

You notice the rolling shutter issue at the press conference otherwise it never really effected us.

The ext shot of the jet was done on an F900 using JetCam (http://www.hotgears.com/jetcam.htm)

Martin Hawkes
cinematographer
Saft Film



http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/ex-series-sample-clips/234848-flight-666-shot-ex1s.html

[Joshbond]

The HMC150 gives me something to save up for. That cam looks AMAZING!

[MetalAlien]

EX1 was used on Public Enemies for some of the tight shots....

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/sony-xdcam-ex-cinealta/238237-public-enemies.html

[boredinfrenchclassproductions]

wow some of those cameras make the $1500 dream camera of mine look like the camera i have now which i couldn't give away if i tryed

[Davo Tron]

The HMC150 gives me something to save up for. That cam looks AMAZING!

It's a rather good camera. Pretty much exactly the same design as a DVX100, took me about an extra 10 minutes sitting down with the manual to get up to speed, and learn all the new features, but it's a great little beast.

I used one on my most recent film, which I should get around to finishing at some point in my life.

[trspballer7]

yeah I plan to purchase an hmc150 this spring, or possibly this winter. it would be great If I got a chance to shoot by feature on it before I go to film school.

[WesScog]

EX1 was used on Public Enemies for some of the tight shots....

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/sony-xdcam-ex-cinealta/238237-public-enemies.html


Finally got a chance to see Public Enemies, and I felt like the EX1 stood up well to 35mm projection, but I could still ALWAYS tell it apart from the stuff that originated from the F950 or F23.

It looks nice, but I could DEFINITELY tell it apart from 35mm.

[WesScog]

http://www.apple.com/trailers/wb/thebookofeli/

Book of Eli, shot totally with the Red.

[MetalAlien]

I haven't seen it yet since I don't like Gangster films... I guess I should just to see how the EX does.

Just for you I saved this... it's a lecture on image sensors and they take a jab at the RED. He mentions that math I was telling you about before. Where they compare the pixel count of the single bayer sensor with that of a 3 chip camera. He calls it the "new math".

His joke is about adding up all the pixels for each (RGB) color since the RED is counting all it's colors too.

It happens quick so you'll have to listen close.

http://media.panavision.com/ScreeningRoom/Screening_Room/Demystifying_Part7_480p.html

Not saying I agree, I just didn't want you to think I was making it up. :)

Oh and a new thread has broken out on DVIinfo about this very subject again. Interesting read.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/sony-xdcam-ex-cinealta/239241-ex3-vs-red-one.html

[WesScog]

Yea, except Panavision is losing massive amounts of business to Red, and all of that stuff he gripes about has long been debunked.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=12484

Lots of this discussion in this thread about it, a lot of DP's thought the presentation was total crap.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-ct-panavision20-2009jul20,0,5682188.story

Panavision has a reason to try to claim that the Red creates an inferior picture, and they also have reason to not produce a better digital camera system (since so much of this business is based on their film cameras, so they have something HUGE to lose if their film camera section goes under).

Anyway that is in relation to stripe-pattern sensors, not 3CCD sensors anyway. Regardless, there is no "new math" involved, he's just trying to be cute.

Regardless, look at results. I look at the stuff from Knowing, and District 9, and Book of Eli, and I see a MASSIVE difference in image quality between it and the EX series. The stuff in Public Enemies looked great, and I liked the tone and style of it, but for raw image QUALITY, the Red wins out definitely.

[MetalAlien]

Anyway that is in relation to stripe-pattern sensors, not 3CCD sensors anyway. Regardless, there is no "new math" involved, he's just trying to be cute.

Regardless, look at results. I look at the stuff from Knowing, and District 9, and Book of Eli, and I see a MASSIVE difference in image quality between it and the EX series. The stuff in Public Enemies looked great, and I liked the tone and style of it, but for raw image QUALITY, the Red wins out definitely.


They mention 3chip sensor blocks too. I just wanted to show you the adding up all the chips thing was being mentioned.. That was not my original source, I have yet to find that page... although it was basically saying the same thing only in more detail. Hell it might have been a panasonic article. :)

Thanks Wes. I enjoy this discussions and reading all the links.

[WesScog]

Read it... You know I was trying to get all excited for 4k cinema while reading that but I'm not feeling it yet. At the indoor theater I go to it's more than half digital. Way before coming to this forum I have been bragging to my buddies at work how much better I think the digital screens look than older film. I always sit within the first 3 rows too. I am one of those people that love the screen to fill my eyes. Even at the crappy drive in we park in the first row.

With that in mind, it's hard for me to get excited for 4k. I imagine it would look like the older 70mm Imax movies only on a normal screen?

If they start showing the movies they way Imax does with near vertical seating with everyone sitting really close to the screen I would be excited about it. But just sharper pictures on a normal screen? It already looks fantastic. I would have to see it to tell you if it mattered to me.

thanks for the link.

EDIT: it seems the point is moot now...LOL

http://www.screendigest.com/online_services/intelligence/cinema/updates/ci-090518-CJ1/view.html

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/news/e3i85a75f3355f4093d7cb396ac259a5407

Over half a billion getting pumped into upgrading more than 15,000 screens in the US with 4K projectors.

[MetalAlien]

That's good, as I said the digital screens have looked better than film for a while now. At least I think so.

I get the feeling there is going to be a great disturbance in the force wth all the wailing of "film" lovers when the word gets out.

Obi Wan - " I sense a great disturbance in the force, as if millions of voices cried out in terror."

[WesScog]

Eh, it's the future. We're actually going to start seeing films how they were meant to be seen, rather than sub-800 lines of resolution prints which have become the standard for most of us.

Give us the 4K scans from the negative, downlink that to the theaters servers, and bam no more cost of having to print 6,000 prints of a film.

[gonzo_entertainment]

As one of the authors in the American Cinematographer I was reading last night said "Digital cameras will have really arrived when they stop being judged by how they compare to film (which still has far more color information). We aren't there yet.

[WesScog]

No but we will be in a year.

[gonzo_entertainment]

No but we will be in a year.


We'll see. I don't doubt we'll get there, but probably a decade or more (as older cinemtographers retire) before even half od big budget hollywood movies are digital not film. The hold up is the workflow more than the quality I think.

[WesScog]

We already have digital systems that can readily resolve more detail than most 35mm film stocks.

Within a year we're going to see Cameras on the market which will routinely be outputting twice the visual data (and thus twice the color data) than 35mm film can even be scanned at and still get viable data from.

Most productions are DI'd at 2K, we've already got 4K cameras on the market, and we'll have almost twice that in a year.

Soon the "film will always be better" camp will be huddled around IMAX, claiming that that is the final holy grail that digital won't ever be able to crack.

Then comes 2011.

[gonzo_entertainment]

We already have digital systems that can readily resolve more detail than most 35mm film stocks.

Within a year we're going to see Cameras on the market which will routinely be outputting twice the visual data (and thus twice the color data) than 35mm film can even be scanned at and still get viable data from.

Most productions are DI'd at 2K, we've already got 4K cameras on the market, and we'll have almost twice that in a year.

Soon the "film will always be better" camp will be huddled around IMAX, claiming that that is the final holy grail that digital won't ever be able to crack.

Then comes 2011.

I don't necessarily disgree technically (though different film stocks add a level of control I'm not sure replicated in digital), but it's going to take time for old school (and highly respected) cinematographers to come around to your line of thinking. A lot of the big boys still want nothing to do with digital, and the workflow still isn't there. There are a lot of hoops to jump through on the Red especially.

[MitchellStafiej]

Wes... no doubt I think we'll get there but I also think that you're putting too short a time frame on this. Technology evolves fast, yes, but to adopt the new technology takes time. Especially with the old schoolers in Hollywood refusing to touch digital. They make film companies so much money that I believe it was Kodak that signed contracts with some top named directors for them to continue using their stock for years.

With the emergence of new filmmakers though we will see a gradual incline of the digital cinema, but not as quickly as you think it may be.

Mitch

[WesScog]

Really? Red is a year away from releasing a 9K camera. That's higher than what they scan IMAX at.

Do you guys forget that just 5 years ago there weren't ANY HD cameras available to consumers?

Just 10 years ago they said that digital would never be able to approach film in quality. Then Lucas shot Clones with the F900, and stubborn film people said, "Yea, but it'll never look as good."

We've gone in just a short decade, from digital cinema being considered impossible or impractical, to it being considered inferior, to now most people not being able to tell the difference, yet the film people try to get esoteric and start talking about slight differences like the "organic texture".

In just 5 years we've gone from no HD cameras on the consumer market, and no professional cameras capable of resolving as much detail as 35mm film, to thousands of HD cameras (quickly getting as cheap as their SD counterparts) on the consumer market, and a digital camera that people claimed was a scam just a few short years ago being used on $100+ million films and readily resolving more detail than most 35mm film stocks.

Digital Cinema technology is moving far faster than we realize since it's a matter of creeping normalcy for us, but once you put it into perspective I think you'll realize that it's only around the corner.

[MitchellStafiej]

Really? Red is a year away from releasing a 9K camera. That's higher than what they scan IMAX at.

Do you guys forget that just 5 years ago there weren't ANY HD cameras available to consumers?

Just 10 years ago they said that digital would never be able to approach film in quality. Then Lucas shot Clones with the F900, and stubborn film people said, "Yea, but it'll never look as good."

We've gone in just a short decade, from digital cinema being considered impossible or impractical, to it being considered inferior, to now most people not being able to tell the difference, yet the film people try to get esoteric and start talking about slight differences like the "organic texture".

In just 5 years we've gone from no HD cameras on the consumer market, and no professional cameras capable of resolving as much detail as 35mm film, to thousands of HD cameras (quickly getting as cheap as their SD counterparts) on the consumer market, and a digital camera that people claimed was a scam just a few short years ago being used on $100+ million films and readily resolving more detail than most 35mm film stocks.

Digital Cinema technology is moving far faster than we realize since it's a matter of creeping normalcy for us, but once you put it into perspective I think you'll realize that it's only around the corner.
No doubt digital is going to be right around the corner... especially for independent cinema. I'm not advocating film or anything. I would really love digital to become the main stay in film... but I just don't see it being the norm for at least another 5-10 years.

Red also said that they'd have the Scarlet out in a year... a long time ago.

I've only just begun using film. So far I much prefer digital. I would absolutely love for digital to become the standard... I just don't think it will happen yet though.

Mitch

[WesScog]

No doubt digital is going to be right around the corner... especially for independent cinema. I'm not advocating film or anything. I would really love digital to become the main stay in film... but I just don't see it being the norm for at least another 5-10 years.

I do. But there will be stubborn people that refuse to move forward for some odd reason or another. Doesn't mean that the world isn't going to move on.

Red also said that they'd have the Scarlet out in a year... a long time ago.

Before the recession, the economic slowdown resulted in the delays, it wasn't anything to do with their end.

Regardless, they've got working prototypes. Just because the revolution isn't in the streets yet doesn't mean it isn't coming.

I've only just begun using film. So far I much prefer digital. I would absolutely love for digital to become the standard... I just don't think it will happen yet though

It will, I promise you. Much much sooner than we think.

[cubes]

Hey Wes, any thoughts or feed back about the Panasonic AG-HMC40?

[WesScog]

Hey Wes, any thoughts or feed back about the Panasonic AG-HMC40?

Seems like a pretty nice camera. I wonder if the 1/4" sensors are big enough for effective night shooting though, most of the night stuff I saw had to open the shutter so wide that it looked really "smeary".

Overall, it's got a lot of features, and it seems like a really nice camera, but if you want something that'd be better for nightwork the new 7D DSLR just came out, and I know that it is kind of more difficult to work with, but it's around the same price point.

[jedijake]

yeh i think im gonna get myself the HV 30 aswell

[jedijake]

wes whats trully better the HV30 or HV40 cuz im finding the HV40 cheaper in places

[blitzkrieg]

Anyone out there had a chance to play with the JVC GY-HM100? It's the one that records to SD cards in .MP4 or .MOV format. I'm looking into replacing my dedicated tape-based video cams (Sony PD-170, Canon HV-30) with a digital solution.

[Gillvane]

Many people are now moving to DSLRs instead of video cameras.

The hot new thing is the T2i from Canon.

You can shoot HD video, plus you get interchangeable lenses so you can get that nice Depth of Field look, just like the film cameras.

http://vimeo.com/9744624


Looks great, costs under 1,000 bucks. HOWEVER, if you really want to put it through it's paces, you need to start getting some glass (lenses) and the nice ones can cost as much as the camera.

But, you can get some great glass that is not to expensive and is manual focus. auto focus doesn't work for shooting video anyway.