Do Dogs Have Souls?

[speekerphone]

I am really pissed off.


My religion teacher keeps trying to convince me that dogs do not have souls. We've had about an hour long debate.
She is mental.
I love dogs, and I do believe that they have souls, and so do all animals.

God created them for a reason. If they don't have souls, then why are they alive?

Ex: If you say that animals don’t have souls, we evolved from apes, which are animals, so does that mean we don’t have souls since we are animals?


That's what I don't get. I really want to smack her!


DOES THIS NOT HAVE A SOUL?!??!?!


http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii178/stewieparker/cute-puppy-pictures-peg-leg-pirate.jpg

[The Elder Brain]

This thread is going to turn into a flamefest in so fast...
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Parker your last tutorial sucked, and your question is stupid

[BackyardProductions]

Dogs are mammals and so our humans, so im 99.9% sure dogs have souls

[KMProductions]

I personally don't think dogs have souls because if you think about it; what are souls for? In Christianity (which I assume is what religion class you in) souls allow us to become saved by Jesus' grace. But to become saved you have to fully accept Him and make Him the center of your life. Dogs don't have big enough brains to understand what Jesus did for us by dying on the cross. So I don't think they can have souls or can become saved. I think God put them here for our enjoyment.

[The Elder Brain]

I'm 99.99 percent sure your mom has a soul

OH SNAP

[speekerphone]

KMP, How do we know that Dogs can't understand Jesus? I mean, since they can't speak, we don't know for sure.

[The Elder Brain]

It's scientifically proven that dogs thought processes are minimal.
Us: I'm hungry. Maybe I'll go down to steak house and grab a burger!"
Them: "Food...Food...Food"

[Nonsensical studios]

I am going to give you some sound advice: Parker, believe what you want to. (As long as it doesn't hurt someone.)

[The Elder Brain]

I will just state my beliefs here:

I don't think dogs have souls. I don't think humans do either.

What he said.

[WesScog]

I personally don't think dogs have souls because if you think about it; what are souls for? In Christianity (which I assume is what religion class you in) souls allow us to become saved by Jesus' grace. But to become saved you have to fully accept Him and make Him the center of your life. Dogs don't have big enough brains to understand what Jesus did for us by dying on the cross. So I don't think they can have souls or can become saved. I think God put them here for our enjoyment.

Well.... theologically...

What about mentally disabled people who might not be able to understand the concept of salvation? Are they doomed to hell because they can't understand concepts of salvation nor sin?

So, I don't think a lack of understanding by default means you lack a soul, as I don't believe that the concept of a soul is particularly dependent on cognitive capacity.

[Kaygee]

DOES THIS NOT HAVE A SOUL?!??!?!


http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii178/stewieparker/cute-puppy-pictures-peg-leg-pirate.jpg

Sure they're cure when they're that big, but it aint so cute when it turns into one of these
http://www.blackfive.net/main/images/2007/09/28/angry_wolf.jpg

[speekerphone]

Edit: Parker, you can change your post, but not the truth I never said that. I would never say that. It would say I edited my post, but I didn't.

It would say this
Last edited by speekerphone : Today at 12:09 AM.

[Nonsensical studios]

Elderbrain, wtf?

Are you trying to frame Parker?

[WesScog]

It's scientifically proven that dogs thought processes are minimal.
Us: I'm hungry. Maybe I'll go down to steak house and grab a burger!"
Them: "Food...Food...Food"


I think dogs are actually quite intelligent. My personal experience with Dogs is that they can understand quite a bit, and have a rather developed range of emotions.

Their cognitive capacity is of course not nearly as developed as ours in many functions, but I don't think that you can say that dog's don't THINK.

They have very specialized intelligences that have made them an important partner for mankind, and while not our equals in many ways, they are "smarter" than us in many other ways.

[speekerphone]

Yes, he's being just stupid. It would say i edited my post.

[WesScog]

Please keep discussion in this thread at the question at hand regarding dogs.

If you do not like this thread, please ignore it. If you have an issue with this thread, report it, and the mod staff will determine the threads appropriateness for inclusion onto the forum, as that is OUR JOB and no one elses.

If you are unhappy with the content of the thread, I highly suggest simply divesting yourself from any contact with it, as I think this is the most appropriate action to make sure that the forum is operating smoothly, and to keep people from getting into fights.

Thank you.

[potentialenergy]

Well.... theologically...

What about mentally disabled people who might not be able to understand the concept of salvation? Are they doomed to hell because they can't understand concepts of salvation nor sin?

So, I don't think a lack of understanding by default means you lack a soul, as I don't believe that the concept of a soul is particularly dependent on cognitive capacity.

The Bible speaks of the age of accountability, it is not a set age because we all mature and gain understanding at different rates, so someone who is severely mentally handicaped would fall under the age of accountability same as babies and small children.

Animals would not need salvation because they did not eat of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil as Adam and Eve did, so there would be nothing that they could be held accountable for.

I do not believe animals have souls, but the bible does say they have a spirit and I believe that spirit will live on in heaven as there are references to all of creation giving glory to God.

One thing you might learn from all this parker is that dogs are color blind and people should follow that example.

[SyxxGage]

I saw a movie once that may provide an answer.

http://animals.timduru.org/dirlist/dog/AllDogsGoToHeaven-DisneyAnimation.jpg

[TheMightySeamus]

One thing you might learn from all this parker is that dogs are color blind and people should follow that example.
I'm fairly certain Speeker didn't say what you're referring to.
And just for giggles, dogs can actually see several different colors. Sin City vision.

[WesScog]

Potential: I think that would be a reasonable theological assumption based on the implications of the Genesis story.

[speekerphone]

I'm fairly certain Speeker didn't say what you're referring to.
And just for giggles, dogs can actually see several different colors. Sin City vision. I did not say that. Just letting everybody know!

[Brainstrained]

I don't see how anyone can definitively say that a dog does or does not have a soul.

It's a matter of mistaking belief for fact.

[potentialenergy]

I'm fairly certain Speeker didn't say what you're referring to.
And just for giggles, dogs can actually see several different colors. Sin City vision.

I would certainly hope not.

And just for giggles, they can sniff their own butt to!

[WesScog]

Brain: Well... We could go the Gerry Nahum route, set up a full electro-magnetic spectrum recording bubble completely isolated from outside interference, and put them on a hypersensitive scale and then allow a subject to die.

[zachmanZM]

Well, Technically they do, But at the same time they don't, I personallly think they do not, But it could be interpereted in many ways, But if you choose to beleive it then do, I won't hold you back, (But the internet isn't the best place to do proclaim your beliefs to the world)

[hayden]

Wes, you can't really talk about this subject without getting into religious debate. Whether or not dogs have souls is based on your religious beliefs and what your idea of a "soul" is. I personally don't believe the whole "Jesus died for our sins thing" and I think that dogs are just as much living creatures as we are.

[Jcg64]

Dogs, being less than sentient, are inherently innocent. I think they certainly are entitled to having a soul.

One thing you might learn from all this parker is that dogs are color blind and people should follow that example.
I'm colorblind! Woot!

[potentialenergy]

They have Bowls which rymes with souls, isn't that close enough?

[MitchellStafiej]

Do WE have souls?

Mitch

[Fisherking]

How can you possibly resolve this question to anyone's satisfaction? It's a synthetic truth. Unless you have some kind of metric with which to measure such a thing, I'm not sure it's a sensible thing to ask. Maybe Wes' electromagnetic sensor. Now all you need is to kill a dog.

As far as cognitive capacity being a measure of 'soul' - do trees have souls? Did that chicken that survived without a head have a soul? And why is this question so important?

[Jcg64]

why is this question so important?
Nobody said it was important. This is a section for people who want to talk about dogs and peanut butter, if I remember correctly.

[Fisherking]

I don't have hour-long debates about things I don't think are important.

[speekerphone]

Well, you're not the only person on this earth.

[potentialenergy]

Well, you're not the only person on this earth.

Maybe he is and everything around him that he has ever been aware of has been created by his imagination and he is really all alone in the Universe.

[evmo]

dogs have souls plain fact in my mind

[Jcg64]

I don't have hour-long debates about things I don't think are important.
this took you an hour?

[nickm54]

parker is the only one without a soul
i would say

[speekerphone]

^Nice to know, now you're reported on Youtube, and here!

[KMProductions]

KMP, How do we know that Dogs can't understand Jesus? I mean, since they can't speak, we don't know for sure.
If they did understand, then why don't they run to a bible around the house and nose it open? lol.

[The Elder Brain]

^Nice to know, now you're reported on Youtube, and here!

Dude he just did that to piss you off. No offense, but reporting him was a douchey thing to do.

[speekerphone]

KMP: Even I don't do that. Why would dogs?

[Brainstrained]

I am a dog and I just wanted to clarify that we have souls.

I must go before my master discovers this.

PS. I am a real dog.

PPS. I am telling the truth.

[YanStofurst]

You are juste contradicting yourself. Dogs don't have soul and we didnt evolved from ape. Homosexuals go to hell, and you musnt have sex before marriage. Earth is 4000 years old.
Or you can scrap all that bullshit.

[TaseCopterStudios]

I'm 99.99 percent sure your mom has a soul

OH SNAP

really? reeeeaaallly?
i hope you are kidding me

[Brainstrained]

Guys... Most random thing just happened with my dog..

[D.M.I-Productions]

KMP, How do we know that Dogs can't understand Jesus? I mean, since they can't speak, we don't know for sure.

good point, and in my school (catholic) they teach that God is in all of us. Does that include dogs?

[AaronHeld]

sheeps go to heaven, goats go to hell

[TreasureBox Films]

This.

At least not the same kinds of souls we do.
Thats what i think. I think to have feelings you have to have a soul. But i don't think its the same as ours.

[Indymoguler]

now this is for people who are religious. i have had people tell me that dogs wont go to heaven. (and yes im a dog person sadly).
but if you think about it, if there is a god, dogs would have no way of repenting or asking for forgiveness to go to heaven. which is why i believe that dogs do not have souls. but its still a bad thing. :(

[WesScog]

Yes, but also, they didn't eat of the Tree of Conscience, so they don't know good or evil, so thus they are unable to sin.

So thus Dogs by default don't have to ask forgiveness for their sins since they CAN'T sin.

[Indymoguler]

hmmm....interesting.
but dont people have to know about god to be let into heaven?
if dogs are supposed to go to heaven, how would they know about god?
if they were never taught or introduced to god in the first place, what gives them a right to go to heaven whether they sin or not?

[WesScog]

Some people believe that, yes, but as far as I know, only for humans.

[nolan]

Deal with a problem yourself instead of "reporting them",or dogging someone across the web taking shots at them.

and as to what your saying,well...I would say dogs have souls,without any research or deep thinking,just for the fact that they are fairly intelligent and I love them

but,you used evolution as evidence.thats another big no no for christianity,so your teacher probably will just refute that in a second in any debate

[sonnyfromda02]

but,you used evolution as evidence.thats another big no no for christianity,so your teacher probably will just refute that in a second in any debate

I was thinking that same thing. Parker, if you believe in the Bible, you would not believe in evolution.

[Skycarl]

Yes, but also, they didn't eat of the Tree of Conscience, so they don't know good or evil, so thus they are unable to sin.

So thus Dogs by default don't have to ask forgiveness for their sins since they CAN'T sin.

Maybe one lifted it's leg on it and pissed someone off.

Sorry, just had to say that.
Now, are animals in heaven?
Well, the book of Revelation says Jesus comes back riding a
white horse. So where did He get the horse?
Something to think about.

[xsanmdanx]

I just can't read a religious conversation without posting a funny picture on it.

So here's one:
http://kuvaton.com/bshit/godpreferesatheists.jpg

[KMProductions]

Well.... theologically...

What about mentally disabled people who might not be able to understand the concept of salvation? Are they doomed to hell because they can't understand concepts of salvation nor sin?

So, I don't think a lack of understanding by default means you lack a soul, as I don't believe that the concept of a soul is particularly dependent on cognitive capacity.

No, I think that with mentally handicapped people or babies are covered with God's grace at that age or stage until they can understand. Or in the case of mentally handicapped people, if they die, they are already covered because they wouldn't be able to understand. It's hard to explain in a post but I hope you get what I mean. However I think that's just for humans though, because although God loves all of His creation, He puts more thought into us.

[Nonsensical studios]

I just can't read a religious conversation without posting a funny picture on it.

So here's one:
http://kuvaton.com/bshit/godpreferesatheists.jpg

I am using that if I ever get into an argument about religion.

[Nonsensical studios]

Sorry for the double post, but I think we are forgetting something:

Dog = God backwards, or vice versa.

Chew on that.

[TreasureBox Films]

but,you used evolution as evidence.thats another big no no for christianity,so your teacher probably will just refute that in a second in any debate
I'm catholic and I believe in evolution. Just not the same way as you.

[WesScog]

I am using that if I ever get into an argument about religion.

It's funny, but there is a lot wrong with it.

Not all Religious people pray to accomplish simple secular things, just as some non-religious people find new things to put their "faith" in and who hope it will melt their fat away without having to do sit-ups (why do you think the diet industry is a multi-billion dollar monolith? Surely not all of those commercial worshippers are religious). Not all religious people don't only not do terrible things because they are afraid of hell, (many Jews including myself don't even believe in a traditional hell) just like many non-religious people don't commit crimes only because they are afraid of being caught and punished by secular authorities. And finally, while Atheists may not fight wars or murder in Gods name, plenty find new things to worship. The Soviets were openly secular, as were Mao's China, and they murdered and enslaved millions for a "greater good".

Being a Secularist does not by default provide you with a superior morality. I believe it is indeed something that must come from within, your religious beliefs (or lack there of) do not provide you with any superior moral capabilities than anyone else.

So I would warn you to be highly wary of utilizing said comic strip as any kind of serious debate tool.

[Todd]

If a dog has a soul, does a carnivorous fungus have a soul (noted for both animal and plant classified behaviors)? What about an apple tree? What about bacteria?

And if bacteria has a soul, then you will have a hard time convincing me that amino acids and complex molecules dont have one. And with that, why dont atomic particles have souls?

Can we safely assume all things material have a spiritual counterpart?

The point? Youre asking WHY. A question that is never answerable. The most profound question to ask, young grasshopper, is "why ask why?"

[WesScog]

Well, I think an important difference is that a Dog is capable of emotional responses, while plants, not so much.

I think that is an important difference. Dogs seem to be capable of what we would consider affection, while I don't think plants can.

[Todd]

Why isnt a plant capable of emotional responses? Emotional responses determine spirituality? Can they not be chemically quantified? Does this imply that emotions, and by this logic, spirituality, is chemically quantifiable?

Why is what "we" consider affection the deciding factor of whether or not said instance has a soul? How do "we" quantify affection?

I play devils advocate so strongly as I do not like the idea that our isolated and narrowed perspective in this universe, as an organism, should determine the spiritual "fate" of other entities, whether we deem them living or not. Example: what makes you think a plant doesnt become "unhappy" when you hack it in half?

Can you linguistically differentiate the planet Earth from a living organism? If not, why does it not have emotions, and by this logic were riding on, a soul?

[potentialenergy]

My heads getting dizzy!

[Todd]

Hahah, Theology and World Religion are amongst my favorite cocktail conversations.

[JackLawrence]

Religion is all whatever people want it to be. Believe whatever you want just don't get into any wars about it.

[WesScog]

Religion is all whatever people want it to be. Believe whatever you want just don't get into any wars about it.


Even though fighting over what you believe may have resulted in me not being in a concentration camp (or dead), you not speaking German, and Fisher not speaking Japanese?

[WesScog]

Why isnt a plant capable of emotional responses? Emotional responses determine spirituality? Can they not be chemically quantified? Does this imply that emotions, and by this logic, spirituality, is chemically quantifiable?

Why is what "we" consider affection the deciding factor of whether or not said instance has a soul? How do "we" quantify affection?

I play devils advocate so strongly as I do not like the idea that our isolated and narrowed perspective in this universe, as an organism, should determine the spiritual "fate" of other entities, whether we deem them living or not. Example: what makes you think a plant doesnt become "unhappy" when you hack it in half?

Can you linguistically differentiate the planet Earth from a living organism? If not, why does it not have emotions, and by this logic were riding on, a soul?

Well, if I wanted to take this from a raw theological point. The defining factor of what separates the biblical god from simply a massively powerful natural force is his ability to FEEL for his creation.

So I think it's a somewhat reasonable idea that perhaps emotional response is one of the things that separates higher lifeforms from lower?

But from a scientific perspective, plants DO feel emotions, they release all sorts of chemicals similar to a stress reaction in response to "pain", or things like fires getting close to them. So that is "kind of" an emotional response, but as far as sentience is concerned, plants as far as we are aware lack any kind of real nervous system of what we would recognize as neurological tissue, and they have as so far shown a no cognizance what so ever, running on "instinct" alone, like little self-replicating energy gathering machines.

[Todd]

ahhh, sorry, i was considering this from a more universal perspective. i wasnt aware we were considering these questions under the tint of a particular faith. i do not feel it is my place to contribute further, if that is the case. i like to remain... stoical, if i am able.

plants as far as we are aware lack any kind of real nervous system of what we would recognize as neurological tissue, and they have as so far shown a no cognizance what so ever, running on "instinct" alone, like little self-replicating energy gathering machines.a plant, maybe. what about hives? what about collectives (such as slime molds, which are mobile, stalk prety, and exhibit very animal like behavior)? what about entire forests? mushroom myceliate which span miles? these have complex chemical systems which can resemble a single conscious entity (sort of like how chemicals are used to produce a one-mind phenomenon with ants).

im not disagreeing with you at all. quite frankly, to step outside my examinatory self for a moment, i certainly agree. but - i dont think we should disregard our lack of perceptive ability when considering such things. humans have, for as long as we know, typically assumed that we are the be all, end all, of experience. may I coin the term, organicentrism (think ethneocentric, but applied to organisms...)? its possible that the same rules we put in place to seperate ourselves from other organisms are just that - forced separation in our favor. we may be completely blind to the greater organisms we inhabit, or perhaps inhabit us. perhaps there are entire dark matter civilizations which surround us, mocking our organicentric blindness. perhaps the plant kingdom, that which we regard as so unemotional, stoical, and unresponsive, is actually singing harmonious glee and screaming bloody murder all the time, we simply choose not to hear.

furthermore, its certainly possible to create a purely mechanical 'being' that feels and communicates emotionally at just a complex level as humans, if not moreso. does it have a soul? if not, why?

what about a genetically engineered organism, combining the DNA of a neurologically un-advanced organism with one that is very advanced? or perhaps a completely new organism designed from some futuristic genetic technology, with a more complex nervous system than that of humans?

so back to what i was saying originally, i dont feel as though you can quantify spirituality to such a degree as to concretely say which organisms are able to participate in such an existence, and which arent. tis a rather silly notion that we could dictate organism X has a soul because it seems happy and sad, but organism Y does not because it has an unadvanced neurosystem. the how is much more important than the why, which can not effectively be answered.

its better to consider that all existence carries with it some spiritual essence.

[WesScog]

"They're made out of meat."

"Meat?"

"Meat. They're made out of meat."

"Meat?"

"There's no doubt about it. We picked up several from different parts of the planet, took them aboard our recon vessels, and probed them all the way through. They're completely meat."

"That's impossible. What about the radio signals? The messages to the stars?"

"They use the radio waves to talk, but the signals don't come from them. The signals come from machines."

"So who made the machines? That's who we want to contact."

"They made the machines. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Meat made the machines."

"That's ridiculous. How can meat make a machine? You're asking me to believe in sentient meat."

"I'm not asking you, I'm telling you. These creatures are the only sentient race in that sector and they're made out of meat."

"Maybe they're like the Orfolei. You know, a carbon-based intelligence that goes through a meat stage."

"Nope. They're born meat and they die meat. We studied them for several of their life spans, which didn't take long. Do you have any idea what's the life span of meat?"

"Spare me. Okay, maybe they're only part meat. You know, like the Weddilei. A meat head with an electron plasma brain inside."

"Nope. We thought of that, since they do have meat heads, like the Weddilei. But I told you, we probed them. They're meat all the way through."

"No brain?"

"Oh, there's a brain all right. It's just that the brain is made out of meat! That's what I've been trying to tell you."

"So ... what does the thinking?"

"You're not understanding, are you? You're refusing to deal with what I'm telling you. The brain does the thinking. The meat."

"Thinking meat! You're asking me to believe in thinking meat!"

"Yes, thinking meat! Conscious meat! Loving meat. Dreaming meat. The meat is the whole deal! Are you beginning to get the picture or do I have to start all over?"

"Omigod. You're serious then. They're made out of meat."

"Thank you. Finally. Yes. They are indeed made out of meat. And they've been trying to get in touch with us for almost a hundred of their years."

"Omigod. So what does this meat have in mind?"

"First it wants to talk to us. Then I imagine it wants to explore the Universe, contact other sentiences, swap ideas and information. The usual."

"We're supposed to talk to meat."

"That's the idea. That's the message they're sending out by radio. 'Hello. Anyone out there. Anybody home.' That sort of thing."

"They actually do talk, then. They use words, ideas, concepts?"

"Oh, yes. Except they do it with meat."

"I thought you just told me they used radio."

"They do, but what do you think is on the radio? Meat sounds. You know how when you slap or flap meat, it makes a noise? They talk by flapping their meat at each other. They can even sing by squirting air through their meat."

"Omigod. Singing meat. This is altogether too much. So what do you advise?"

"Officially or unofficially?"

"Both."

"Officially, we are required to contact, welcome and log in any and all sentient races or multibeings in this quadrant of the Universe, without prejudice, fear or favor. Unofficially, I advise that we erase the records and forget the whole thing."

"I was hoping you would say that."

"It seems harsh, but there is a limit. Do we really want to make contact with meat?"

"I agree one hundred percent. What's there to say? 'Hello, meat. How's it going?' But will this work? How many planets are we dealing with here?"

"Just one. They can travel to other planets in special meat containers, but they can't live on them. And being meat, they can only travel through C space. Which limits them to the speed of light and makes the possibility of their ever making contact pretty slim. Infinitesimal, in fact."

"So we just pretend there's no one home in the Universe."

"That's it."

"Cruel. But you said it yourself, who wants to meet meat? And the ones who have been aboard our vessels, the ones you probed? You're sure they won't remember?"

"They'll be considered crackpots if they do. We went into their heads and smoothed out their meat so that we're just a dream to them."

"A dream to meat! How strangely appropriate, that we should be meat's dream."

"And we marked the entire sector unoccupied."

"Good. Agreed, officially and unofficially. Case closed. Any others? Anyone interesting on that side of the galaxy?"

"Yes, a rather shy but sweet hydrogen core cluster intelligence in a class nine star in G445 zone. Was in contact two galactic rotations ago, wants to be friendly again."

"They always come around."

"And why not? Imagine how unbearably, how unutterably cold the Universe would be if one were all alone ..."

[Todd]

I highly enjoyed that. Source?

[WesScog]

"They're Made Out of Meat" by Terry Bison, from his book, "Bears Discover Fire".

[speekerphone]

I could care less about what my religion says. I believe in evolution.

[WesScog]

Then disregard any question of souls and move on.

We've yet to scientifically (and reliably) detect anything close to the theological concept of the "soul" in ANY lifeform.

If you don't care what your religion says, then simply ignore the argument altogether.

[sonnyfromda02]

I could care less about what my religion says. I believe in evolution.

Then you do not believe in your religion.

[xsanmdanx]

I could care less about what my religion says. I believe in evolution.
But you still bothered to argue with your teacher?

[Todd]

im a firm believer that religion and science are mutually exclusive.

[pinnaclestudioking]

But you still bothered to argue with your teacher?

good one sandman

[nickm54]

Dude he just did that to piss you off. No offense, but reporting him was a douchey thing to do.
thank you elder
yeah dude you definitely do way more to piss people than i do and you dont see everyone reporting you on youtube or here yes i got a deserved warning on here but why youtube dude?

[Word of the Day]

personally I don't care about this kind of topic but

I believe that all things have souls. dogs, cats, humans, rocks, your computer, everything.

[JackLawrence]

Religous Studies teachers have no right to tell you what religous beliefs are right. Is it common for them to do that in America? In the UK they're not allowed to.

[Spleg]

'Erik, is there really a clone heaven?'
'No, clones don't have souls!'
'A-ha-ha-ha-ha!'

[speekerphone]

'Erik, is there really a clone heaven?'
'No, clones don't have souls!'
'A-ha-ha-ha-ha!' Dogs aren't clones.

[Spleg]

Dogs aren't clones.
What about dog clones?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/08/photogalleries/dogclone/images/primary/dog_clone1.jpg

[The Elder Brain]

In my opinion you have to be careful, because if you abuse your soul a werewolf-vampire hybrid will bite you and make you a soul zombie. I'm for srs

[speekerphone]

They're still alive.

[TheMightySeamus]

What about dog clones?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/08/photogalleries/dogclone/images/primary/dog_clone1.jpg
Clones have always confused me...will their thoughts be exactly like the original? Would they have to experience everything the original did to think like it? Or are they, for all intents and purposes, another mind in the same body?

I suppose I'll have to clone myself and ask him.

[TreasureBox Films]

will their thoughts be exactly like the original?


No.


Would they have to experience everything the original did to think like it?
No.

for all intents and purposes, another mind in the same body?
Yes.

[TheMightySeamus]

No.



No.



Contradiction?
If the clones thoughts won't be exactly like the originals thoughts, why would the clone think in a similar fashion to the original, without experiencing the events that caused the original to think that way?

My brain is melting.

[TreasureBox Films]

let me explain.
Clones can have accents even lisps when you don't. they can have black hair and blue eyes while you are blond and green eyed. They are just in the inside genetically the same as you.
sorry i didn't understand the origanal post.

[TreasureBox Films]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloning

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/tech/cloning/whatiscloning/

[WesScog]

let me explain.
Clones can have accents even lisps when you don't. they can have black hair and blue eyes while you are blond and green eyed. They are just in the inside genetically the same as you.
sorry i didn't understand the origanal post.

Actually, true clones wouldn't have a lisp that you don't, as a lisp is caused by a irregularity in mouth structure, and since they are a clone they would have a practically identical mouth structure. They would only possibly have a lisp if they suffered a severe mouth injury that you didn't.

They COULD have a different accent, but only if they were raised in an environment with different linguistics. Like if I was cloned and my clone was raised in Japan, it'd have a Japanese accent, while I have a southern accent.

As hair and eye color are both determined genetically, they would look the same as you in all counts.

[Indymoguler]

If a dog has a soul, does a carnivorous fungus have a soul (noted for both animal and plant classified behaviors)? What about an apple tree? What about bacteria?

And if bacteria has a soul, then you will have a hard time convincing me that amino acids and complex molecules dont have one. And with that, why dont atomic particles have souls?

Can we safely assume all things material have a spiritual counterpart?

The point? Youre asking WHY. A question that is never answerable. The most profound question to ask, young grasshopper, is "why ask why?"
and god says that once you come into heaven, everything will be perfect. so can bacteria actually be able to be in heaven? it wouldnt make life perfect, i think

[Indymoguler]

personally I don't care about this kind of topic but

I believe that all things have souls. dogs, cats, humans, rocks, your computer, everything.

a rock?! really? seriously?

[TreasureBox Films]

Actually, true clones wouldn't have a lisp that you don't, as a lisp is caused by a irregularity in mouth structure, and since they are a clone they would have a practically identical mouth structure. They would only possibly have a lisp if they suffered a severe mouth injury that you didn't.

They COULD have a different accent, but only if they were raised in an environment with different linguistics. Like if I was cloned and my clone was raised in Japan, it'd have a Japanese accent, while I have a southern accent.

As hair and eye color are both determined genetically, they would look the same as you in all counts.
Gasp! My sources! THEY HAVE BEEN PROVED WRONG!!!!

[WesScog]

Contradiction?
If the clones thoughts won't be exactly like the originals thoughts, why would the clone think in a similar fashion to the original, without experiencing the events that caused the original to think that way?

My brain is melting.

A clone would just be like having a twin (if the clone was created at the same time as you) you wouldn't think the same, you would look the same, but you wouldn't be the same person.

You'd most likely have many of the same characteristics (like how twins separated a birth might prefer the same brand of toothpaste, or both enjoy model trains), but you wouldn't be identical in every way (also just like twins.)

If I cloned Hitler, it would be unlikely (near impossible) he would try to take over the world, as Hitler wasn't just his genes, he was a convergence of many different cultural and historical factors that resulted in him becoming "THE HITLER".

He would have to be born in the same family situation, have the same events happen to him, the same course of actions happen in his life, and then he would most likely become far far more like the Hitler we're familiar with.

[Radstrike]

If I cloned Hitler, it would be unlikely (near impossible) he would try to take over the world, as Hitler wasn't just his genes, he was a convergence of many different cultural and historical factors that resulted in him becoming "THE HITLER".

He would have to be born in the same family situation, have the same events happen to him, the same course of actions happen in his life, and then he would most likely become far far more like the Hitler we're familiar with.

I heard one theory state that if Hitler had only been accepted into art school, he wouldn't have gone into politics.

[WesScog]

I heard one theory state that if Hitler had only been accepted into art school, he wouldn't have gone into politics.

We don't know how different his life would have been, but I think he would have still gotten into politics.

Hitler's rejections came long before his military career, which fundamentally changed his perspective on the world, and led to his assignment to infiltrate the "German Worker's Party", which politicized him and led to him eventually joining the party for real and taking a leadership role in it.

The art school rejections weren't an influence (as far as i'm aware) for him joining the military (as he never lost interest in art, and moved to Munich so he could admire the architecture), so it would have most likely happened regardless of him getting into the school.

[Fisherking]

Even though fighting over what you believe may have resulted in me not being in a concentration camp (or dead), you not speaking German, and Fisher not speaking Japanese?

I guess that was more about fighting over what someone else believed.

Then you do not believe in your religion.

That would seem to be the case, yes.

Religous Studies teachers have no right to tell you what religous beliefs are right. Is it common for them to do that in America? In the UK they're not allowed to.

I think he was talking about a Sunday School teacher, who call tell him whatever they want.

As an Australian, I can tell you that primary school 'religious studies' here is better know as 'propaganda from the local church.'

As for the whole 'clones' hijack: Some of you guys need to get out of this mode of thinking that clones are mysteriously grown in a vat and come out exactly the same as the original. It's not nearly as sexy as that.

Many of the 'nature v. nurture' questions may be entirely philosophical in nature. I don't suspect you could ever get a conclusive, satisfying answer.

[speekerphone]

No, i have religion class during school.

[WesScog]

No, i have religion class during school.

Then I don't believe they can tell you ANYTHING conclusively about religion simply because they are government funded (unless you go to a Private or Catholic School).

What if you were a Native American Animist? Then OBVIOUSLY Dogs would have souls (or rather spirits) as would EVERYTHING. (But obviously only for certain tribes, not all tribes held identical beliefs about the natural world and the abundance of spirits in it).

[WesScog]

I guess that was more about fighting over what someone else believed.

Well, yea, it wasn't a perfect example by any means. But my primary point I want to make is that I believe that some ideas are most definitely worth fighting for.

[Hugo_Fuchs]

Soul derived from animus meaning breath. So to have a soul it must breathe. Dogs breathe, therefore dogs have souls. Note: theologians don't want to admit their food might have had a soul.

[WesScog]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofpYRITtLSg

[The Elder Brain]

^
Yeah I saw that. I don't usually get moved by that kinda stuff, but that got me :(

[TreasureBox Films]

I bet the dog was planning to eat the other one!

[WesScog]

That's an idea I had as well, but I think it would have jerked with it's teeth, like it was a kill. But it looked like it was purposefully pulling with it's body so it didn't hurt the other dog.

The Other dog was still alive, if the dog was planning on eating him, he'd probably just killed him there on the road, and pulled him to the side of the road and eaten him there, instead of pulling him completely off the highway.

[TreasureBox Films]

well, the dog knew he was being watched and made a plan to make it look like he was trying to save him!

[Alasdair]

joke's on you, souls aren't real

[TreasureBox Films]

joke's on you, souls aren't real
No offense, but you're dumb as rocks.

[Alasdair]

how does a soul manifest itself? in personality?

personality and behaviour is a cocktail of chemical reactions and electrical impulses that can and are modified by the physical world constantly

there is nothing ethereal or arcane about it

[TreasureBox Films]

how does a soul manifest itself? in personality?

personality and behaviour is a cocktail of chemical reactions and electrical impulses that can and are modified by the physical world constantly

there is nothing ethereal or arcane about it
those are some big words for such a small man.

[Alasdair]

that doesn't mean anything at all, say something that has meaning

[TreasureBox Films]

that doesn't mean anything at all, say something that has meaning
HAHAHAHA! That made me laugh.

[The Elder Brain]

those are some big words for such a small man.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u47/doomXL/Internettoughkid.jpg

[TreasureBox Films]

HAHAHAHA! That made me laugh.

[Alasdair]

still waiting =)

[TreasureBox Films]

E=MC squared.

[Alasdair]

actually E = (1-v^2/c^2)^-0.5(m0)c^2 to be more specific

[TreasureBox Films]

actually E = (1-v^2/c^2)^-0.5(m0)c^2 to be more specific
Jazz.

[ThreeOnAMeathook]

those are some big words for such a small man.

that doesn't mean anything at all, say something that has meaning

...he has nothing, because souls are faith-based and blind faith is silly.

[greyroompictures]

Gosh! A flame war... how quaint and unusual... ;)

[Fisherking]

Gosh! A flame war... how quaint and unusual... ;)

Fuck you!

[greyroompictures]

Fuck you!

At least let me go to the drug store first... I've looked in my wallet and... etc etc