HV20 a good buy?

[nolan]

Do you guys think that the HV20 is still a good buy,even if it is refurbished for around $420?Or is the HV30 that much better that I should not buy an HV20?also,with the release of the HV40,should I expect prices on the two earlier models to drop at all?

or,of course,the other option,I have been looking at the FS100 and other similiar cameras for a good price around $300.Are tapes becoming obselete quickly?I want whatever camera I buy to last a long time,so at this point is it better to switch to SD cards and all digital?

[Hunterr]

Do you guys think that the HV20 is still a good buy,even if it is refurbished for around $420?Or is the HV30 that much better that I should not buy an HV20?also,with the release of the HV40,should I expect prices on the two earlier models to drop at all?

or,of course,the other option,I have been looking at the FS100 and other similiar cameras for a good price around $300.Are tapes becoming obselete quickly?I want whatever camera I buy to last a long time,so at this point is it better to switch to SD cards and all digital?

I love my HV20. It's a great camera with excellent picture quality. It has a mic jack, a headphone jack, and a lot of features that your average consumer camera doesn't show.

That is a pretty good price; just make sure that it is a legit website.

And just to let you know...miniDV is Digital.

-Hunter

[nolan]

And just to let you know...miniDV is Digital.

-Hunter

oh yeah,of course,my bad.thanks

but what i meant to say was,i know dv tapes are on the way out,but are they going fast enough,and are the new SD cards and Hard Drive cameras good enough,to make an SD or HD camera a better investment than a MiniDV?

also,is it true that the HV20 is basically the same as the HV30 minus the black finish?

here is the site I'm looking at:
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=10009427&prodlist=celebros

it seems legit enough.are there any major benefits to buying new as opposed to refurbished?

[WesScog]

Canon FS100 (http://www.amazon.com/Canon-FS100-Memory-Camcorder-Advanced/dp/B00114LG7U) - Approx. $279:
http://www.vimeo.com/898724
http://www.vimeo.com/2781296 (Upscaled to HD)
http://www.vimeo.com/1428959
http://www.vimeo.com/924391
http://www.vimeo.com/2723397 (Also Upscaled)
http://www.vimeo.com/1378883
http://www.vimeo.com/928021

HV30 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/539289-REG/Canon_2680B001_VIXIA_HV30_HDV_Camcorder.html) - Approx. $539 (With a top of the line 35mm Adapter, it would run about $1,700, with the Adapter used in the final example it would be under $1,000):
http://www.vimeo.com/1154024 (35mm Adapter)
http://www.vimeo.com/895240
http://www.vimeo.com/930740
http://www.vimeo.com/1454421
http://www.vimeo.com/1464926
http://www.vimeo.com/1434906 (Color Correction)
http://www.vimeo.com/1421891

And here is a video that I think just looks truly amazing, it was shot with the HV20, but the HV30 and 20 are identical except the HV30 is black, and has a 30P mode, so you can still compare them:
http://www.vimeo.com/1737450

Here is the FS100 and the HV30 (and 20) up against one another.

The HV30 is basically the HV20 with a new paint job, except the HV30 ALSO has a 30P mode which the HV20 lacks.

I also think they fixed the zoom toggle or something, so it works better.

The HV20 and HV30 produce identical images (if you white balance them the same, and they are both shooting in the same mode).

The HV20 and HV30 will be cheaper in the used market, but NEW, they will actually become more expensive as stocks of the cameras run out. I know it's counter-intuitive, but it's a good idea to buy it now than later on when it's discontinued.

[nolan]

Thanks Wes, you are a HUGE help.I'm gonna go watch all that sample footage.

so you would suggest sticking with the HV20 and MiniDV rather than making the jump to hard drive and SD cards?

oh and i almost forgot,would the FS100 or similiar models be as compatible with many accesories as the HV20/30 are,and does it have as many manual controls?

[WesScog]

No, the FS100 wouldn't be compatible with all of the same accessories, the FS100 lacks a hotshoe (the little compartment on top of the camera that lets you click in some accessories) and it lacks a mic input, and I believe the FS100 has almost no (if any) manual features.

While I am a big supporter of Harddrive and Solid State cameras (they are the future, no doubt about it) many cameras who utilize the formats unfortunately generally encode in some codecs that have low bitrate and high internal compression.

AVCHD is a great format (it's what many of the Harddrive and SD based cameras record in), but it takes twice as much computing power to edit a AVCHD clip, than it does an HDV clip, because of all the extra decompression involved (or so i've heard).

And personally, having edited both, i've seen the difference personally in Primiere pro, AVCHD can take a LONG time to render out and edit.

The FS100 though, I think encodes in MPEG-4, which is better, but still has (I believe) high compression than HDV generally does. So there are more artifacts involved, and it captures less data (because of the lower bitrates).

The FS100 also doesn't capture HD (even though the clips that are Upscaled that I posted look pretty darn good), and HV20 is far superior image-wise.

[nolan]

Thanks again Wes. From everything you said about the two,and the test footage,my idea that the HV20 is a better camera is confirmed.and I wanted to see if the new HD and solid state cameras were efficient and reliable enough yet,and if the MiniDV would still be in use long enough for an HV20 to be a good investment

[WesScog]

I can still find VHS tapes at my local Wal-Greens, even though they haven't made a VCR based camera in years.

I can also still buy Hi-8 tapes (and was amazed, was at Circuit City today, and found not one but TWO Hi-8 models out on display).

MiniDV is going to be obsolete VERY soon, but you'll still be able to buy MiniDV cameras, and tapes for AT LEAST the next 5-15 years or so.

I see almost all consumer MiniDV based Camera lines being discontinued over the next 5-8 years, with them being almost totally replaced by HDD and SD alternatives in the same timeframe.

The HV line will probably max out at the HV100 (if they keep releasing a new HV model every 18 months or so like they've been doing.) With it eventually being co-opted out to the HG and HF lines.

But there is going to be significant demand for the tapes for the next decade (My first VHS Camcorder, I didn't get an upgrade to until about 2001 or so. So I kept it operational for about 16-17 years from when my family first bought it) and even though it's way obsolete, you can still find tapes for it almost 10 years after I replaced it (and 34 years after VHS consumer launch) it wasn't until recently that they stopped manufactuering tapes.

So if MiniDV's follow a similar timeline, MiniDV's total discontinuation should be around 2029, although personally, I expect it to happen far sooner since Camera technology is changing so rapidly.

[nolan]

So with MiniDVs becoming obselete so soon,and giving way towards Hard drive cameras etc., at this time would you say it would still be a good idea to keep with the DV format?or,being that I am making an investment at this time,would it be better to go ahead and switch to hard drive,etc. now rather than later?i figure I'm spending the money now,so even if MiniDV will be functional for years to come,it might be better to go ahead and spend it on the upcoming format which will be worked on and developed in the future.I dont need the camera NOW, but i would like it in the near future.also,I had seen the HG30,which is the same as the HV30,only different recording media,at least from what i read.however,i think that might be too expensive as I'm on a pretty tight budget right now

[WesScog]

MiniDV is not a bad format, but having worked with different workflows (Solid-State Flash cards for a project I shot on Red) I can tell you, MiniDV is largely outclassed now.

BUT, most consumer (or prosumer) cameras that are in the same price range as the HV line don't really take full advantage of the superior formats.

The HG and HF (using Harddrives and Solid State respectively) are pretty much equal to the HV line.

But it's going to be another 5 years or so until you see SD and Hard drive technologies, really taking full advantage of their potential (at least in the consumer market, in the Professional and Prosumer market, tape based formats have been largely superceded, although HDCAM (and a few others) are still pretty common, but some companies have just switched over to Solid State almost exclusively, like with Panasonic dropping the tape compartment on the sucessor to the HVX - the HPX line, and going with P2 card compartments on the cameras)

The problem with video technology, is that it is changing at the speed of light. A professor at my schools film program told me how they used to offer a Videography course, but had to drop it because what they were teaching the kids was out of date by the time they got out of the course.

So I mean no matter what you get, it's going to be surpassed by something better in 5 or 10 or 15 years.

The Red One has only been out for a few years, and they've already been made "Obsolete" by their new modular camera design with superior sensors that are coming out this Summer, and yet they are still shooting Hollywood films with it even though it's "obsolete".

Obsolete doesn't necessarily mean "bad", it simply means there is something better.

35mm has been made "obsolete" image-wise by 65mm IMAX, but not economically obsolete, it's still cheaper to shoot 35mm.

35mm has been made economically "obsolete" by digital camcorders, BUT the majority are not up to par with 35mm aesthetically (at least not under every circumstance).

Yet 35mm is still used, even though there are "better" options both aesthetically and economically.

[nolan]

So,for the price that I'm looking for,and still needing to buy a mic,etc. I think I should go with the HV20