Obama critique thread

[Jier]

Is it me or is Obama just as retarded as Bush was? I mean first he says he will continue the war in the Middle East; He gives DVD's to a Foreign Dignitary whom in return gave priceless relics, not to mention regifting items that we received from the same country after 9/11 as a show of unity to the same said country. Allegations are coming that he himself okayed the AIG bonuses in his Stimulus package under a rider, and allegations he's reconsidering his stance on Guantonimo Bay.

Is this a case of making too many promises than one can reasonably keep in one four year term; Trying too hard to make them happen within his initial two months, when things like this take much more time than he's giving himself, or just plain ignorance?

Now, I'm no sour grapes McCain supporter. I stated many times we were F*ed either way. For the last three elections we've had two piles of Sh* to choose from, and I just wish we could get a real candidate, be he Liberal or Conservative, instead of the random rich-boys we've been getting. Who, in all truthfulness, don't know what it takes to be President any more than most of the 14 year olds on this site know how to handle a big budget film. Like Michael Bay big budget.

Regardless, if we don't start demanding more in our elected officials we are f*ed.

[hayden]

*facepalm*

[ciwi286]

Whats the facepalm for... did people really think Obama was going to wave a magic wand and make everything better?

[Jier]

Whats the facepalm for... did people really think Obama was going to wave a magic wand and make everything better?

Most people on this board did.

[Griffmo]

Haha Speekerphone

"OBAMA, OBAMA IS THE BEST WOOOO OBAMA OBAMA!"
"What's your favorite policy by him?"
"Uh...well...um..."

[woodentoe]

Is it me or is Obama just as retarded as Bush was?

This was the original question....not whether Obama had access to a magic wand with which to solve the world's ills.

My answer to this question...is...no.

[nolan]

Haha Speekerphone

"OBAMA, OBAMA IS THE BEST WOOOO OBAMA OBAMA!"
"What's your favorite policy by him?"
"Uh...well...um..."

lol
this forums representative for the ignorant masses

[Alasdair]

Is it me or is Obama just as retarded as Bush was? I mean first he says he will continue the war in the Middle East; He gives DVD's to a Foreign Dignitary whom in return gave priceless relics, not to mention regifting items that we received from the same country after 9/11 as a show of unity to the same said country. Allegations are coming that he himself okayed the AIG bonuses in his Stimulus package under a rider, and allegations he's reconsidering his stance on Guantonimo Bay.

We're in an economic recession who cares about what gifts he gives to the (immensely unpopular) Prime Minister. It's good he kept them thrifty instead of trying to show off extravagant gifts

It's a damn good thing we have Obama right now so we can actually get the economy stimulated back into shape - I shudder to think what a Republican dominated Congress and a Republican president would do to try and stimulate it other than just cut taxes for rich people and corporations!

Of course he's not perfect (he's a politician!) and he just got into office, but I think he's doing a damn good job even if he is another centre-right shill!

I don't think anybody outside of your imagination thinks Obama was going to magic everything away. There's been a lot of damage done to the US since Reagonomics came about, it's going to take a long time to fix and it isn't going to happen anytime soon!

[Alasdair]

you know what we'd be complaining about in an alternative universe right

"IN THIS TIME OF ECONOMIC CRISIS OUR PRESIDENT SEES FIT TO SPEND FOUR HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS OF OUR TAXES ON A DIAMOND ENCRUSTED DILDO FOR THE KING OF ALBANIA THIS IS AN OUTRAGE A GIFT CERTIFICATE TO BEST BUY WOULD HAVE BEEN FINE AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH""

[Alasdair]

remember all those awesome gifts Bush got for foreign leaders

the news was all over how cool they were

I remember each and every gift Bush got

oh wait I don't remember a single story on this, this talking point is retarded

[speekerphone]

^alasdair is right.

[17thletterfilms]

^alasdair is right.

You unquestioningly support Obama.

[Scott]

I ate a delicious apple today.

[Alasdair]

there are plenty of things to bash Obama for

these are all dumb things

[Nonsensical studios]

You unquestioningly support Obama.

^17thletterfilms is right

[Alasdair]

if we're getting any cool stuff like legal weed and gay marriage and universal health care it'll be in his second term when he doesn't have to worry about re election

[nolan]

universal health care under the same category as legal weed?

[hayden]

universal health care under the same category as legal weed?

yeah.... they're both awesome

[nolan]

the health care seems like it might have more chances of getting started in his first term as opposed to the weed

[Jier]

Honestly? I've been watching a lot of BBC World News and from what I can see our image in the World Court is still as bad as if we were still stomping babies on the curbs for profit; which we kind of are when you look at his Abortion policies, and see that they now tend to aim towards low income women. Yes, we can't teach a child about proper use of condoms and birth control in Middle School when they first become sexually active when their hormones kick into overdrive, but we can wait until they're a senior and drop abstinence into their throat like it's the proper solution.

No, instead we'll allow individuals to dance on the subject and portray that a parent can loose legal rights to their child if they dare strike them in public outside the womb, but inside it they can have some cook ram a suction tube into the back of their neck and suck them - often while their fetal heart still beats - into a mason jar before stabbing the heart with a needle. Meanwhile, another Doctor uses a scrapping device to literally scrape the lining off the birth canal. Yes, we can't whip a child to teach when you do something bad you get a negative response, or punishment, but wait! You can avoid that mess by just killing it in the womb.

The truth is people look at the time when the reccession started, and also look at the War in Iraq. All of you keep talking about the Democrats as if they are piaras. They are not: If the Democrats really wanted to stop the War in Iraq they could have at any given time during the second term of George W. Bush. Any. Time. Instead, Hillary Rodham Clinton - one of the largest proponents against the war during the primaries - voted continually - during the primaries - to keep the War moving. Infact, she voted to pass bills in which legislation was written that would inevitably lead us into War with Iran. A War she herself continually stated Bush was intending to lead us into, now if she really feared that outcome why did she knowingly encourage it? Not only encourage, but push it along?

The fact is: Democrats held House, and Senate. The Democrats had the means to leash Bush, but didn't. We are in this mess because Bush has become the scapegoat for War, when at any given time the Democrats could have stopped it with their checks and balances within the House and Senate. The fact is they voted for these things, and they allowed them to happen, while publically dismissing them as war crimes. Crimes they knowingly passed legislation for.

As for Obama, he never even voted. Barely did he ever show himself to do his job he was elected for by his constictuants in Congress during the entirety of last year. He worried more about this Election than doing his job, and instead of handing his seat off to someone else while he ran for President, he held to his seat and allowed legislation to pass unchecked. He didn't do his job then, why should we be so surprised he's barely able to do his job now?

We were fucked with McCain, and we are fucked with Obama. To demonstrate his incompotense I'm going to make a prediction. While they won't take it with a landslide, Obama will loose House and Senate seats to the Republicans in 2010. It took Bush four years to do this, and it took Clinton six. I believe we'll see a significant lean towards conservative politics in 2010. It's already being moved right now. Why? Because most of you are children, and you don't look beyond the scapegoats and stereotypes. Obama stated: Now is not the time for Marijuana to be legalized. He'll never do it. If you're clinging to that hope then cling to a Republican who says "I intend to release it for Medical use for cancer patients." Or, an Indy Politician.

The Democrats are not saints. They are just as guilty, if not more-so than the Republicans for this war. Don't even try to praise their sainthood. They could have stopped it, if not one way then they could have another. They're just as stained in blood. So stop crying they are holy on high.

[nolan]

Nobody on here is praising the democrats. Well except for maybe speekerphone but he doesn't count. The only thing people are talking about is the inevitable,somewhat unfair criticisms of Obama. The number of problems are so overwhelming that there was no way he could fix them all within 2 months, but the campaign promises and the type of hype and atmosphere that surrounded him did make a small number of people gain an almost savior like view of him. Now that he is failing to fulfill all of them,people are getting angry.

Besides, wasn't it you that started this thread with the question "is Obama as big a retard as Bush?".So you started from your hated stereotype of Bush as a retard,giving yourself the original appearence of one of those democrats who had hailed Obama as the next coming and is now angry as your unfair expectations go unrealized, and now all of a sudden your huge conservative,defending republicans and chastising any democrats?

[Jier]

I have always stated myself as a Conservative on these boards. Always.

[nolan]

Alright then,that's my mistake,but you came off as a disappointed democrat in the first post on this thread,at least to me.

[kwano]

Obama gave the impression that he'd fix the economy in a couple of months. This is obviously not happening.
Damn ignorant people for believing ridiculous promises.

[nolan]

I don't see how. He referred constantly in speeches to these problems being long term,and not having quick fixes. And he never stated that he could fix the economy in a matter of months, so anybody who believed that he could was making their own (stupid) inferences

[Flamekebab]

I can't say I've been unimpressed by Mr. Obama's conduct so far. I wasn't expecting miracles and I feel he's doing fairly well at holding things together. If all the media can find to ridicule him for are things like giving rubbish presents to unelected British politicians then I'd say it can't be all bad!

Personally my view of the USA is significantly improved by having a leader who seems to make sensible decisions. I've not seen a politician I like as much as Obama in, well, my lifetime.

[Jier]

Personally my view of the USA is significantly improved by having a leader who seems to make sensible decisions. I've not seen a politician I like as much as Obama in, well, my lifetime.

Continuing the War Bush started, and the War he constantly denounced Bush for, was reasonable? Yeah, I'm kind of missing it.

[Flamekebab]

Continuing the War Bush started, and the War he constantly denounced Bush for, was reasonable? Yeah, I'm kind of missing it.
I've not been following the politics of demobilising the US' enormous resource allocation over there, but I know there's word of bringing British troops home finally. I wasn't exactly expecting all troops to vanish the day he took office. It's been a couple of months, not a couple of years.

[nolan]

yeah seriously flamekebab is right, what is he supposed to do just whisk every soldier our of Iraq the minute he takes the oath?hes started more progress than Bush had planned,and has a strategy in place to get us out as soon as he and his advisors think is safe

[Jier]

I've not been following the politics of demobilising the US' enormous resource allocation over there, but I know there's word of bringing British troops home finally. I wasn't exactly expecting all troops to vanish the day he took office. It's been a couple of months, not a couple of years.

That's not what I'm talking about. He has stated publically that he will continue the War. Because unlike Bush he isn't going to bring "Democracy," but "Stability" to the region. He's pledged more troops to Afghanistan. The only troop movement is out of Iraq.

[uhrisuh]

What's the tl:dr on this?

[nolan]

democracy tends to be extremely unstable, especially during it's early years. and i think that troops are needed in afghanistan, but he is heavily scaling back the war in Iraq which I think should be done

[Jier]

democracy tends to be extremely unstable, especially during it's early years. and i think that troops are needed in afghanistan, but he is heavily scaling back the war in Iraq which I think should be done

Scaling back one war to promote another? Hello. My name is Captain Obvious, and I'd like to make a comment: You see, typically when I hear a president say he wishes to "End the War on Terror" and then he decides to continue it. I'd like to say, "Hey, wait a second. That's completely opposite of what you said you where going to do in the first place.""

[Alasdair]

I will grace you with my awesome opinions and tell you why yours are stupid in a few days

[WesScog]

What's the tl:dr on this?

News Flash: Obama isn't the messiah.

[Jier]

"...but don't be suprirsed if he claims to be, particularly in a church at some point."

Sorry, running gag amongst my group of friends. :P

[uhrisuh]

News Flash: Obama isn't the messiah.


WAIT!!! WHAT!?!?! You mean that the man I voted for isn't going to fix everything REALLY SUPER FAST!?!?! You mean to tell me isn't going to make EVERYTHING all better?!?!? but but ... I .. I voted for him... :rolleyes:

[Geass]

Obama has done what most all other presidents have done, just promised. It's great that in some fact he's trying but i just don't think he has any clue of what he's gotten himself into. He's the youngest presdient we have. He didn't serve that long as a congressman. This whole economy/iraq thing is just to above his head.

[nolan]

I don't think that you can just abruptly cut the war on terror off.With Al Queda and other terrorists groups, the region is just too unstable and you still need to keep a presence in Afghanistan

[Alasdair]

"...but don't be suprirsed if he claims to be, particularly in a church at some point."

Sorry, running gag amongst my group of friends. :P

your friends have a stupid sense of humour

Why do conservatives make talking points like "Obama thinks he's the messiah" out of literally nothing

you think it's "uppity" that in a presidential race a candidate makes himself out to be the best choice?

NOBODY THINKS HE IS THE MESSIAH YOU ARE TILTING AT WINDMILLS AND JUST BECAUSE HE ISN'T JESUS CHRIST DOESN'T MEAN HE'S NOT A GOOD LEADER

Republicans are children

[Alasdair]

by the way I did not vote for Obama (voted Brian Moore)

[Fisherking]

What's the tl:dr on this?

http://www.imagechicken.com/uploads/1238896101014382800.jpg (http://www.imagechicken.com)

[uhrisuh]

http://www.imagechicken.com/uploads/1238896101014382800.jpg (http://www.imagechicken.com)


hehe.. I love you.

[Jier]

your friends have a stupid sense of humour

Why do conservatives make talking points like "Obama thinks he's the messiah" out of literally nothing

you think it's "uppity" that in a presidential race a candidate makes himself out to be the best choice?

NOBODY THINKS HE IS THE MESSIAH YOU ARE TILTING AT WINDMILLS AND JUST BECAUSE HE ISN'T JESUS CHRIST DOESN'T MEAN HE'S NOT A GOOD LEADER

Republicans are children

"NBC News Article: The Messiah of Madison Avenue. (http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-whitlock/2009/02/06/nbc-thrills-over-brand-obama-messiah-madison-avenue)"

Also, read your scriptures, or better yet watch The Omen. :P

[sirslapshot19]

Pulling troops out of Iraq really isn't the smartest idea right now. There is no reason to. We have helped over there but there is still a lot more to do, and pulling out troops isn't going to make the problems go away. We're keeping many troops in Afghanistan, why not keep them in Iraq too.

I see it like this
Population:BRING HOME TROOPS!
Obama:Troops will start coming home at such and such dates.
Other Population:But Iraq isn't stable enough to just leave.
Obama:Oh damn.

AND

POPULATION: CLOSE DOWN GITMO!
Obama:Hell yeah it's closing!!!!!!
Population:Where are the detainees all going?
Obama:To America!...............oh

Just saying Obama to me has made good and bad decisions so far, but some just seem to be crowd pleasers.

[Jier]

Everyone wants to focus on the torture of the "innocent" suspects, but the truth is G.T. Bay is holding real, and guilty parties. They will have to be put into our Federal system and the chances are if you live near a Federal Pen you will have one of them near you. That's scary when you think FCI's typically aren't prepared or equipped to handle such inmates.

[NaziActionFigure]

ORLY? Are you an expert on these federal correctional institutions?

[Jier]

I live two miles from one, and I have for the bulk of my life; My Fire Dept. has three members whom work there, one being positioned in the control room. Not only that, but I had spent a lot of time soaking up info on FCIs because I feathered the thought for a few years on joining the Guard ranks.

So, yes. I think I know more on the subject than you.

[NaziActionFigure]

I live two miles from one, and I have for the bulk of my life; My Fire Dept. has three members whom work there, one being positioned in the control room. Not only that, but I had spent a lot of time soaking up info on FCIs because I feathered the thought for a few years on joining the Guard ranks.

So, yes. I think I know more on the subject than you.

I was only pointing out that gitmo detainees won't be plopped into just any prisons.

[WesScog]

WAIT!!! WHAT!?!?! You mean that the man I voted for isn't going to fix everything REALLY SUPER FAST!?!?! You mean to tell me isn't going to make EVERYTHING all better?!?!? but but ... I .. I voted for him... :rolleyes:


I know, seriously. I thought he was going to nail this like a Super Mario Speedrun.

How do you fix the economy? Warp Whistles.

[Jier]

I know, seriously. I thought he was going to nail this like a Super Mario Speedrun.

How do you fix the economy? Warp Whistles.
Because the economy is like the internet. It is a series of tubes.

[KingNikan]

Bier your expecting him to come into office and fix crap the next day. How bout you come out of your fantsy world and realize that a war can't be ended in less then 2 months or that a international recession can't be ended in 2 months either. He has been presiden for less then 70 days And he held up welll

[Jier]

Bier your expecting him to come into office and fix crap the next day. How bout you come out of your fantsy world and realize that a war can't be ended in less then 2 months or that a international recession can't be ended in 2 months either. He has been presiden for less then 70 days And he held up welll

Did I say anything about him not being able to fix things in a timely fashion? No, my attacks have strictly been on his flip-flopping in policy nearly constantly.

[xsanmdanx]

http://i.somethingawful.com/u/petey/comedygoldmine/2009a/march/deephurting/a1pics/editorial_20090314.gif

[TheMightySeamus]

http://i.somethingawful.com/u/petey/comedygoldmine/2009a/march/deephurting/a1pics/editorial_20090314.gif

Once again, Sandman proves his point with an elegantly placed comic strip.

[xsanmdanx]

Once again, Sandman proves his point with an elegantly placed comic strip.
Did I have a point? I just posted a funny comic that has something in common with original topic, like I usually do.

j/k

[Kaygee]

http://leftofdial.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/mad-obama.jpg

[Alasdair]

"NBC News Article: The Messiah of Madison Avenue. (http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-whitlock/2009/02/06/nbc-thrills-over-brand-obama-messiah-madison-avenue)"

Also, read your scriptures, or better yet watch The Omen. :P

that is the news commenting on how people like Obama

oh shit people like him, NOOOOOOOO HE THINKS HE'S JESUS

HE'S SUCH AN UPPITY NIGG...ELITIST

Everyone wants to focus on the torture of the "innocent" suspects, but the truth is G.T. Bay is holding real, and guilty parties. They will have to be put into our Federal system and the chances are if you live near a Federal Pen you will have one of them near you. That's scary when you think FCI's typically aren't prepared or equipped to handle such inmates.

no you moron the issue with GT is that they don't get trials to figure out if they're innocent or not they are just held there without trial in violation of the fucking constitution

people would turn in random nobodies to the US saying they were terrorists for money

but hey it's much easier to make shit up like OBAMA WANTS TO LET SCARY TERRORISTS GO FREE ASDFKJALKSDFJASLKDF than HEY maybe we SHOULDN'T torture random people that we don't even know are guilty? maybe?

also the reagonomics cartoon pretty much sums up the entire situation, maybe the economy would be fixed faster if republicans weren't manbabies sucking at reagan's teat kicking and dragging their feet

[Fisherking]

I live two miles from one, and I have for the bulk of my life; My Fire Dept. has three members whom work there, one being positioned in the control room. Not only that, but I had spent a lot of time soaking up info on FCIs because I feathered the thought for a few years on joining the Guard ranks.

By the same logic, I'm an economist because my aunt works in a fucking bank.

[kwano]

By the same logic, I'm an economist because my aunt works in a fucking bank.


pwn'd

[Jier]

By the same logic, I'm an economist because my aunt works in a fucking bank.

Oh? Do you study economics,do you talk to bankers regularly, and do you read into the economy much? Probably not. As I stated, I looked into becoming a Guard, and I researched what FCIs typically were like on the inside, and several more things I will not rehash.

[xsanmdanx]

America! Fuck yeah!

[Alasdair]

Oh? Do you study economics,do you talk to bankers regularly, and do you read into the economy much? Probably not. As I stated, I looked into becoming a Guard, and I researched what FCIs typically were like on the inside, and several more things I will not rehash.

if they're all EVIL SAND NIG...TURRISTS, why not give them a fucking trial to prove it

oh wait they're brown and wear turbans

[nolan]

anyone notice a few similiarities between some current events and those leading up to WWII?

[Alasdair]

anyone notice a few similiarities between some current events and those leading up to WWII?

like what? fixing a shitty economy? I guess so!

[doid]

Since when did dumping money into a market make it go better? Drop the taxes and reduced federal spending. They are giving the money to the same people who screwed up the first time. and taxing the bounuses? thats againts the constitution.

[Alasdair]

Since when did dumping money into a market make it go better?

THE FUCKING GREAT DEPRESSION YOU FUCKING MORON GOD DAMN WHY ARE YOU SO STUPID

[Alasdair]

HURRRRR DROP TAXES THE "INVISIBLE HAND" OF THE FREE MARKET WILL FIX THINGS AND THE WEALTH WILL "TRICKLE DOWN" AS IT WERE

I AM LITERALLY RETARDED YES WHY DO YOU ASK

[nolan]

like what? fixing a shitty economy? I guess so!

well yes,for one

and I think that the natural cycle of the capitalist economy will eventually bring it back up,so you shouldn't mess with it TOO much,and you can't really fix the entire thing through government programs.but you still have to do something to help,and this is better than the "trickle down reduce taxes on the wealthy" ideology

[Alasdair]

hahahahahahahahaha no if this meltdown or the great depression meltdown has taught you anything you can't trust the fucking capitalist economy

capitalism is retarded and immoral

no war but class war

[NaziActionFigure]

if they're all EVIL SAND NIG...TURRISTS, why not give them a fucking trial to prove it

oh wait they're brown and wear turbans

No, they're not people! Fuck habeas corpus and all that constitution bullshit, I'm too scared.

[Fisherking]

Oh? Do you study economics,do you talk to bankers regularly, and do you read into the economy much? Probably not. As I stated, I looked into becoming a Guard, and I researched what FCIs typically were like on the inside, and several more things I will not rehash.

Yeah, I probably even looked it up on the same Wikipedia.

The best part is that life on the ground for a guard there is about as relevant to America's ongoing torture regime as working in a bank is to international finance.

And no, despite the assurances of fifteen year old with friends who totally work in a prison, I'm not yet convinced that everyone's guilty, especially with revelations that there are no comprehensive case files and what there is spread all over the place.

Are some people there guilty? Probably. Who knows? Since they've contumaciously refused to give trials and have little to no info on many, who can say?

Listen to yourself: You're claiming that the GT inmates are murderous terrorists - all of them - that cannot possibly face trial and be put into the Federal prison system. You base this on the fact that three of the guys from your volunteer fire service work as prision guards, and that you've read a Wiki article. This is just about as sensible as me claiming my expertise in international finance based on the fact I try to learn a little about economics on the side and have a few family members in banking/accounting.

Since when did dumping money into a market make it go better?

Keynes, you semi-literate fuck. Look him up.

If you're going to feign any understanding of economics whatsoever, you at least familiarise yourself with, y'know, the most important economist of the twentieth-century.

Yessir: These are the intellects that keep Reaganomics strong.

[Jier]

First off: I do not use Wikipedia. Wikipedia is trash and only trash uses it. Secondly, money needs dumped into the economy, but not Government money. It needs to becoming from us, because we're the ones that spend money on a regular basis. All stimulus does is put a bandaid on an already broken limb.

Which, btw, Obama never wanted to do a Stimulus until after it came out that Bush's $1 billion package did good. So, what was his logic? WE'LL USE $100 TRILLION MILLLION BILLION DOLLARS! Huh, Doctor Evil much? It's a childish number that denotes the simpleton mind that is attached to the President we got.

Of course, need I remind Obama was also against Bush's stimulus package when he originally tried to pass it back in Sept-November.

[nolan]

hahahahahahahahaha no if this meltdown or the great depression meltdown has taught you anything you can't trust the fucking capitalist economy

capitalism is retarded and immoral

no war but class war

it happens,it will go back up,it always does.those two examples are just worst "busts" than most.

nobody ever said capitalism was moral,but its preferable to communism

[Alasdair]

First off: I do not use Wikipedia. Wikipedia is trash and only trash uses it. Secondly, money needs dumped into the economy, but not Government money. It needs to becoming from us, because we're the ones that spend money on a regular basis. All stimulus does is put a bandaid on an already broken limb.

tell it to the great depression you revisionist

isn't all money "government money" anyway? you should give me all your government money because apparently it's no good!!!


Which, btw, Obama never wanted to do a Stimulus until after it came out that Bush's $1 billion package did good. So, what was his logic? WE'LL USE $100 TRILLION MILLLION BILLION DOLLARS! Huh, Doctor Evil much? It's a childish number that denotes the simpleton mind that is attached to the President we got.

Of course, need I remind Obama was also against Bush's stimulus package when he originally tried to pass it back in Sept-November.

er

http://features.csmonitor.com/politics/2008/11/07/obama-urges-bush-congress-to-pass-a-stimulus-package/

he just criticised certain aspects of it but was always pushing for a stimulus?

so basically you're completely lying now?

Obama is extremely well educated (I don't think anybody can deny that) I am sure he was aways aware of Keynesian stimulus

[Alasdair]

nobody ever said capitalism was moral,but its preferable to communism

why?

(and those aren't the only two systems)

[Jier]

Alasdair, the fact you're stating communism could be better than capitalism voids any and all arguments you may have on the economy for my tastes.

[Alasdair]

so basically you have no response but "RAWR FILTHY COMMUNIST", awesome

you can't parody this stuff it's literally indistinguishable from the real thing!

my hypothesis continues to hold valid: conservatives are children

[Alasdair]

http://scuttle.mirror.waffleimages.com/data/files/a2/a24e4b637c7fb576afd69269f048773b2385caf8.jpg

CAPITALISM, FUCK YEAH

[Alasdair]

Alasdair, the fact you're stating communism could be better than capitalism voids any and all arguments you may have on the economy for my tastes.

tell me how the great depression ended if not "massive government spending" and how "government money" is worthless

[Kaygee]

why?

(and those aren't the only two systems)

The whole genocide thing tends to turn people off.

[nolan]

why?

(and those aren't the only two systems)

i never said they were,but the comments you were making sounded like a communist's perspective

and because from my point of view it goes completely against human nature

[Alasdair]

The whole genocide thing tends to turn people off.

one could easily say the same about capitalism

very very easily

[Alasdair]

i never said they were,but the comments you were making sounded like a communist's perspective

and because from my point of view it goes completely against human nature

what's wrong with going against human nature? human nature is something that needs to be reeled in to stop us from killing or oppressing each other or stealing all of each other's coconuts!

[WesScog]

one could easily say the same about capitalism

very very easily

How so?

[Alasdair]

How so?

Off the top of my head the massacring of 200,000 civilians in Guatemala brought about by the US funding right wing paramilitary groups

basically anything involving Reagan and South America

[Alasdair]

Before his administration took office in 1980, President Reagan courted the Guatemalan right, whose views he shared. He promised then-president of Guatemala General Romeo Lucas Garcia and leaders of the right, a 180 degree turn in US policy toward their country. The agreement provided for the restoration of US weapons sales, the curtailment of State Department criticism of human rights violations, and the promise that the US would intervene militarily in the event of a popular uprising. The assurances by Reagan may have led the Guatemalan government officials who ran the death squads to feel confident that the US would support their activities. The death squads were staffed and directed by the Guatemalan Army and Police under the command of President Lucas. Private businessmen paid the salaries and often assisted in compiling lists of potential victims -- usually student, labor, professional, and political leaders.

The significant increase in the number of death squad assassinations -- including the assassination of 34 of the top leadership of the moderate Christian Democratic Party -- that took place after Reagan took office, may have been a direct result of his assurances to the Guatemalan right. In February 1981, Amnesty International, reporting on massive human rights violations in Guatemala, attributed nearly 6,000 deaths to the Lucas Gracia government in less than three years, many of them at the hands of death squads. The attendance of Mario Sandoval Alarcon, considered to be the high commander of the Guatemalan death squads, at the Reagan inauguration, reveals the close relationship that existed between the Guatemalan rulers and the Reagan administration.

The Historical Clarification Commission, an independent human rights body, estimated that the conflict claimed the lives of some 200,000 people with the most savage bloodletting occurring in the 1980s.

Based on a review of about 20 percent of the dead, the panel blamed the [US-funded and trained] army for 93 percent of the killings and leftist guerrillas for three percent. Four percent were listed as unresolved.

The report documented that in the 1980s, the army committed 626 massacres against Mayan villages. "The massacres that eliminated entire Mayan villages … are neither perfidious allegations nor figments of the imagination, but an authentic chapter in Guatemala's history," the commission concluded.

[WesScog]

That sounds like an issue with American Foreign policy in regards to the last stages of the Cold War, rather than an issue with Capitalism as a system.

No where while reading Adam Smith did I see him doctrinally supporting imperialist impositions of his ideas on foreign nations. In fact, if anything, most every capitalist thinker i've ever read has been largely pacifist, seeing the utilization of violence as a failure of the mind.

So I don't see how it blame in the situation can be lain solely at the feet of Capitalism as a economic system. As personally, I see it as (from your perspective) as a poor foreign policy decision in response to another nations poor foreign policy decisions.

[Alasdair]

I think the point was that neither capitalism or communism has a monopoly on genocide and to pretend one does is dishonest

[WesScog]

I would argue otherwise, Capitalism is decidedly pacifistic, it's the exchange of labor for wealth without violence. Violence makes things less efficient and makes creating wealth more difficult.

Communism (or more specifically Marxism) is doctrinally violent and genocidal.

Some people trying to impose some kind of Free-Market economy onto people by force is not the fault of Capitalism, that's going against Capitalist doctrine, and it has been more an extension of decisions we made while fighting the Cold War as a Nation, rather than an extension of Free-market concepts.

[Alasdair]

whoops violence over there increases profits over here

[WesScog]

I say in general, that that is not how most people think or operate.

[nolan]

seems like wes is talking more in terms of the actual theories of the systems and their creators,and how it would work ideally according to doctrine.But alasdair is talking more in terms of historical actions of states who have used the systems

in regards to human nature,i just think communism is not what the average person would want to live under,it gives no real cause for ambition,which would in turn seem to damper creativity and give no motivation to work harder

[WesScog]

The difference is that Capitalism is not a government type, it's an economic theory.

While Communism is a collusion between the two.

Capitalism has no real power over the doctrines of a nation, and Capitalism has been continually curtailed by governments.

While Communism, IS the government, AND the economic theory. Thus Communism as a doctrine has more weight to carry for it's application, than Capitalism does for states that follow it, yet do other things that are very uncapitalistic.

Communism is inherently violent and genocidal, while Capitalism is inherently (in its doctrines) pacifistic.

You point to states that you claim to have done bad things, that just happen to have capitalist systems, while every state that follows Marx-style Communism is by default doctrinally required to commit genocide.

[nolan]

I think you can pin most of the world's mass genocides of past on communism or fascism,which both connect genocide to their base doctrines.anything you can pin to capitalist countries is not connected to that actual economic system,more of a coincidence

[atomic9studios]

I don't think we should be criticizing someone who will never, ever see this.

I mean just my 0.02 but i find stuff like this pointless : /

[uhrisuh]

I say we give him 8 years and then see. :D

[Jier]

I say we give him 8 years and then see. :D

That was our mistake with Bush. =P

[dakaf_fal]

The problem with the whole thing about idiots believing Obama's impossible promises is that they're a large part of the constituency that got him elected in the first place. And I'm noticing a veritable abscence of talk on all the pork in the so-called "stimulus". Last but not least, going waaay back to the gifts to the PM and Queen issue, it's not that anyone really cares about the gifts in and of themselves, more that it shows Obama doesn't respect other leaders enough to get them something decent, which would tend to offend other countries. I don't think America really needs any more enemies right now...

[dakaf_fal]

I think you can pin most of the world's mass genocides of past on communism or fascism,which both connect genocide to their base doctrines.anything you can pin to capitalist countries is not connected to that actual economic system,more of a coincidence

And I don't think genocide and Communism have anything to do with one another by definition. Sure, genocides may have happened under Communist regimes, but Communism, in the most basic form is an even distribution of the wealth and collective ownership of property. I'd say the problem you're talking about comes about more from dictatorships than Communist governments. The problem that always happens with a Communist state is that when it's formed, the vanguard never steps down from a leadership role, creating an "upper tier" of party officials who end up killing loads of people to maintain control of the state. In a Communism, there would be no violence because everything would be perfectly democratic, thus everything would be done for "the greater good". The problem is that no one can work for the greater good when they can benfit more themselves, thus proving that human nature is capitalistic!
:superjustin:

[Alasdair]

The problem with the whole thing about idiots believing Obama's impossible promises is that they're a large part of the constituency that got him elected in the first place. And I'm noticing a veritable abscence of talk on all the pork in the so-called "stimulus".

talk about the "pork" then

the republicans have whined like shit about the pork, mostly about stuff that makes shitloads of sense to have

"pork" just means "anything I don't like" when it comes to people talking about the stimulus bill

[nolan]

And I don't think genocide and Communism have anything to do with one another by definition. Sure, genocides may have happened under Communist regimes, but Communism, in the most basic form is an even distribution of the wealth and collective ownership of property. I'd say the problem you're talking about comes about more from dictatorships than Communist governments. The problem that always happens with a Communist state is that when it's formed, the vanguard never steps down from a leadership role, creating an "upper tier" of party officials who end up killing loads of people to maintain control of the state. In a Communism, there would be no violence because everything would be perfectly democratic, thus everything would be done for "the greater good". The problem is that no one can work for the greater good when they can benfit more themselves, thus proving that human nature is capitalistic!
:superjustin:

agreed,this is what i said earlier about human nature

but allow me to rephrase then:marxism